Should siren technique be something that is taught?

[NERT11]

An idea I had for a discussion topic. We see/hear/watch an abundance of instances/videos where the Q button seems to be under the officers arse on the chair. The Q winds up when the officer gets in, and doesn't come off peak until they arrive on scene. Or they set the electronic on powercall and leave it. Do you think that siren technique for effective traffic clearing is something that should be studied and taught in the field?

 

[WS224]

An idea I had for a discussion topic. We see/hear/watch an abundance of instances/videos where the Q button seems to be under the officers arse on the chair. The Q winds up when the officer gets in, and doesn't come off peak until they arrive on scene. Or they set the electronic on powercall and leave it. Do you think that siren technique for effective traffic clearing is something that should be studied and taught in the field?

No.

 

[squeeeg]

I notice it more with POVs responding to the station. I have 2 friends that really don't know what the point is. One of the turns on hyper yelp and screams down the road. The other will come to an intersection and change tones like an 8 year old playing with a lightswitch. They both drive my crazy, but I guess they can do what they want.

 

[NERT11]

No.

Thanks for your input

 

[Phillyrube]

Stick it on yelp and leave it on till I get where I'm going.....

 

[BigWil]

I like to switch it up...wail with less traffic, higher speed, yelp at slower speed, coming up to an intersection, and toss in some airhorn if the intersection isn't clear. Works for me.


I don't think a class should be taught on it until there is some solid research done (there may have been, but none that I'm aware of) and basic siren use should be covered in an EVOC class at that point.

 

[EMT-BLS]

An idea I had for a discussion topic. We see/hear/watch an abundance of instances/videos where the Q button seems to be under the officers arse on the chair. The Q winds up when the officer gets in, and doesn't come off peak until they arrive on scene. Or they set the electronic on powercall and leave it. Do you think that siren technique for effective traffic clearing is something that should be studied and taught in the field?

I feel that it's something that should be taught, and at the same time, shouldn't. If you teach someone to use the siren based on the traffic conditions, they will eventually start "driving to the siren", meaning that when they're on a fast tone, they'll drive more erratically....but at the same time, you can't expect other drivers to hear you if the Q has winded down most of the way. There has to be an iota of common sense in Public Safety, not everything needs to be said. I mean, we still have to remind people to not bother attempting resuscitation on a decapitation call.

No.

Thanks for a well thought out debate.

 

[chief1562]

No.

Typical responce as always.


I find using one tone for to long and it just blends in


We were tought to chance the tone every few minute (evoc course her). Change tone when coming to an intersection and use the airhorn.

 

[theroofable]

Its still the same amount of wattage, although its annoying to you (and me), it still works. The Q on peak the whole time is annoying to most people, but it is louder when it is winding up rather than coasting down. Luckily in my department people don't keep it peaked long.

 

[pop2one]

An idea I had for a discussion topic. We see/hear/watch an abundance of instances/videos where the Q button seems to be under the officers arse on the chair. The Q winds up when the officer gets in, and doesn't come off peak until they arrive on scene. Or they set the electronic on powercall and leave it. Do you think that siren technique for effective traffic clearing is something that should be studied and taught in the field?

Yes...and I do.

 

[Phoenix_Rising]

They've actually integrated technique in as part of the VFIS EVDC. Helpful since theres two different sciences behind sirens ( mechanical vs electronic) . At higher speeds its possible to "outrun" your siren if using only an electronic siren. And PA has it written into law that EV's must switch to yelp no less than 200 ft from an intersection.


Lets not forget all the other bells and whistles out there ( pun intended ) : airhorns, rumbler, etc.


So to answer your question: fundamental principles of sirens should be taught, but like above, as an integrated part of standard ( since "most" areas have some form of EV driver training) EV driving/operators course, not as a stand alone.

 

[PJD642]

I like to switch it up...wail with less traffic, higher speed, yelp at slower speed, coming up to an intersection, and toss in some airhorn if the intersection isn't clear. Works for me.

EXACTLY!!!!

 

[RolnCode3]

Yes...and I do.

Exactly. Professionals teach new employees the skills needed to do the job. I've taught all of my trainees to use the siren. Usually takes about 30 seconds.


Me: "Turn the siren on. When you get to an intersection, you can press the horn ring. It changes the tone for 8 seconds. Maybe it'll help. Let's go."


Them: "OK"

 

[vc859]

I was unofficially taught by some experienced drivers that you use wail for straight aways, yelp at intersections, and change the tone early enough before the intersection to give drivers time to react

 

[justavillain]

I was taught wail till 200ish ft before intersection switch to yelp, 200ish after back to wail.


If busy intersection go to hyper wail/yelp in squad if brt air horn tap the q for short burst.


As for the q I like to wind it up, let off and just feather it a few times and repeat on long stretches of roads I usually don't wind it up unless traffic isn't movinv. I always let off the q before the intersections to let the electrical siren do the work

 

[NERT11]

A lot of good points and ideas. I like the idea of it being included in EVOC. A Q siren, to me anyway, seem to be most effective when it's cycling in a fairly large range, and I've always gone with the theory of, as you approach an intersection, or traffic gets thicker, you work through the tones from wail to hyperyelp/phaser/piercer accordingly.

 

[JohnFireFan]

Do you think that siren technique for effective traffic clearing is something that should be studied and taught in the field?

Does a bear shit in the woods?

 

[Zoe]

This thread is a real shocker to me.


I was taught... in an EVOC class no-less... that there is a specific science to the siren tones, and that is how I use them.


(And I know I've repeated myself numerous times on this board regarding this.)


The Wail tone, because of the actual sound wave, travels a further distance, but at close ranges it's hard for the human ear to triangulate the source location.


Conversely, the Phaser tone does not travel far, but it is very easy for the human ear to triangulate the source.


Yelp is in the middle.


So, while cruising down straightaways, Wail all the way. About the time I pull up off of the gas and start to coast (for any sort of obstacle or threat) I switch to Yelp. Then about the place where I start to apply brakes I go to phaser. At the actual intersection I activate the air horn at random intervals to try to grab the attention of anyone who hasn't notice me yet.


This is what I was taught, and this is what I now teach everyone else.

 

[chief1562]

Does a bear shit in the woods?

Another good responce :nono:


Do you have an opinon on this or not?

 

[Tlauden]

Our unofficial standard is turn on the powercall. Work the Q and Air horns. Seems to be very effective. Mostly air horns for intersections and curves.

 

[chrismartin1701]

personally siren technique should be something to be taught. cant tell you how many videos i have seen with people laying on the Q button to make it sound like one long high-pitched noise. we generally keep our sirens on 1 tone which would be wail. if we come to an intersection that isnt clear or someone isnt getting the clear message and wont pull over. then we switch it to yelp and/or hyper yelp with a little bit of air horn. since we dont have Q's on our trucks we only have the electronic sirens. but i do like what one of our neighboring depts has. an old Mack flat nose with a Cencom, Q and powercall. when those get mixed together with the proper tones, hoo baby! that sounds badass.

 

[embe78]

it is tought in cevo. Wail is a longer sound and is heard from farther away but harder for other drivers to pinpoint. As you approach a intersection you are supposed to switch to yelp. i dont think that phaser is an officially accepted tone. I might be wrong. More important is for you and people you train to realize the limitations of your lights and sirens. Try this. Next time you hear a siren roll up your window and turn the radio on to your usual level and see when you can actually pinpoint when and where the siren is coming from. You will be surprised it will probably be within a few car lenths.

 

[vonirkinshtine]

They did teach it in my EVD class. We were taught to change the tone 300-500 ft from the intersection then change it back once we've cleared the intersection.

 

[PJD642]

I'm all for wail and rapid wail (phaser or whatever) at intersections, but instead of the airhorn (which stops the siren tones, since I don't have REAL airhorns on my cruiser) I use the horn on the steering wheel (no, the horn ring isn't attached to the siren controls). The actual horn works well and penetrates nicely, adding a second tone to the siren noise. Plus people almost always look to see who the jackass is blowing their horn, which leads them to see my cruiser, and slam on their brakes...which is what I want.

 

[SomeBloke]

What I feel is a good example of smart siren technique.

Comes into the traffic on yelp, proceeds through the light, switches the tone. Continues through traffic, comes to next traffic light, switches tone to make a point, then quickly switches tone again to make sure other drivers spot the vehicle.


Also to note is the speed and positioning used in conjunction with the siren, switching tones when changing speed and also switching tones when making progress.

 

[patrol530]

Maybe an hour of instruction, but then you'd have to fill the other 55 minutes.

 

[360 Safety Gear]

EVOC here teaches us to use wail then switching to yelp 500 ft before approaching and while in the intersection.

 

[Zoe]

While we're on the subject, it's also important to off-set your vehicle so the siren speaker is projecting sound down the side of the vehicle in front... not burying the sound into their back bumper.


The difference in the front vehicle is amazing.

 

[SomeBloke]

While we're on the subject, it's also important to off-set your vehicle so the siren speaker is projecting sound down the side of the vehicle in front... not burying the sound into their back bumper.

The difference in the front vehicle is amazing.

Indeed, I think this is why a lot of the UK training courses teach road positioning too. (At least from what I've seen of the many youtube recordings of UK EVOC courses)

 

[JPolston]

I think it should be something brought up by the dept. When a person is cleared to drive they need to know how to do things efficiently and safely. I was raised around the dept. and have the same habits my grandfather had while driving, as well as operating pumps while on scene. I however, lucked out in this. Not all guys on my dept, though they are cleared to drive, know how to safely do so.


As for sirens, I run wail most of the time, switch it up between yelp and hi-lo(if I'm feelin froggy) when coming up to intersections and hit the air horns if they're busy. That's it, I don't use any of the hyper crap. That's how my grandpa, dad, and uncle did it, that how I do it, thats how some of the older guys on the dept. do it, and it's how I will recommend it to guys getting cleared to drive. Just personal preference with a mix of attention grabbing common sense.


If you want to hop in, stick it to wail or yelp, and work your way to scene, well more power to ya.

 

[Zoe]

I think it should be something brought up by the dept. When a person is cleared to drive they need to know how to do things efficiently and safely. I was raised around the dept. and have the same habits my grandfather had while driving, as well as operating pumps while on scene. I however, lucked out in this. Not all guys on my dept, though they are cleared to drive, know how to safely do so.

As for sirens, I run wail most of the time, switch it up between yelp and hi-lo(if I'm feelin froggy) when coming up to intersections and hit the air horns if they're busy. That's it, I don't use any of the hyper crap. That's how my grandpa, dad, and uncle did it, that how I do it, thats how some of the older guys on the dept. do it, and it's how I will recommend it to guys getting cleared to drive. Just personal preference with a mix of attention grabbing common sense.


If you want to hop in, stick it to wail or yelp, and work your way to scene, well more power to ya.

"The fire service: 100 years of tradition unhindered by progress."





*poke* *poke*

 

[chief1562]

No.

I see that someone who claims to be an instructor you have a no intelligent reponce to the OPs question.


Hope your students learn more than just NO.

 

[DancesWithWolves]

When I teach new drivers, here's what I tell them:


No siren: Either signal 4 (non-emergency response) or transporting a patient in no rush. The only time the siren comes on is by intersections or to clear a car in front of us. It's also annoying to hear in the back for the medic working on the person trying to talk to them.


Wail: Just for general response, good for distance down a long road. You can put it on manual and use the button to just quickly tap the siren to get people to move.


Yelp: At intersections, that's it.


Phaser: At major intersections where there is a lot of traffic going in different directions.


Airhorn: When someone won't yield to us, or it appears someone is trying to move in front of us from another lane or direction.


When responding with another vehicle that has a siren, the 2nd vehicle should change its siren tone so it is different from the 1st vehicle. That way it is clear there is another responding unit behind the 1st one.

 

[NERT11]

I've seen it in person a few times, but I like how St. Catherines Rescue 1 seems to do it. Electronic siren when they are going down the street, and the Q goes from nothing to peak when they approach the intersection. I think this is a super effective method (starts at about 0:20)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDV-oAkJpEk