Tomar RECT-13 RFI Issue...

[jprleedy4680]

My Tomar RECT-13's (located on my front grille) wreak havoc with my radio equipment in the VHF high-band. It's bothersome because I can hardly hear radio traffic when responding over the amount of static.


I was wondering if anyone else has/had this problem and what they did to mitigate it, or if I'm simply SOL and should seek replacements.


Thanks!

 

[PTRJason]

I would maybe try calling Tomar, and letting them know you are having an issue. If yours were bought recently, and they have fixed the issue, it maybe covered under a warranty, and they may replace them for you because you may have gotten them old stock. If you have had them for awhile, they may still replace them.


Also check where they power wires are ran for them, if they are to a center control box along with the radio, maybe try running the wires on the other side of the console, away from the antenna and power wires for the radio. Also possibly use different grounds if the radio and the lights share the same ground.


I am not sure if any of those will work, but it would not hurt to try.

 

[PJD642]

I really doubt if its the RECT-13s themselves causing the RFI problem, more likely its the wiring for them. Where is the antenna for your mobile radio located? Where is the antenna wire run - is it near any power leads that go to the Tomars or any other equipment? Are all of your ground connections tight? Are you using the same power source for the radio and the Tomars (same wire)?


I'd expect you have more than just a set of grill lights on your vehicle since you mention responding, so lets start simple. Disconnect the power and ground lines from the Tomars, so they're completely separate from any electrical connection to your vehicle. Turn all the other lights and radios on, and what happens? Do you still get RFI? If yes, then the Tomars are not the issue. If no, try connecting the power and ground lines for the Tomars directly to your vehicle battery (use a 5-amp fused line, and make sure positive goes to positive, ground to ground, etc) while all the other stuff is still flashing and turned on. Now do you get RFI when the Tomars are wired directly to the battery? If yes, the Tomars are the problem (which I highly doubt). If no RFI when they're directly to the battery but yes when they're connected using your installed wiring, you need to recheck the wiring in your vehicle.


I'm assuming again, but you've got a fuse block with separate power leads for your mobile radio, lights, siren (can you use one when responding?), etc, right? If not, install one so you're not feeding all your devices over one power lead. Check the ground connection from your mobile radio. Actually, check ALL your ground connections, for everything electrical that you're added to the vehicle - mobile radio, all lights, sirens, switch boxes, etc. Check to make sure the antenna is screwed on tight (NMO mount?) Check the antenna wire to make sure it hasn't frayed and exposed the shielding inside to the vehicle metal.


Let us know what you find.

 

[jprleedy4680]

I really doubt if its the RECT-13s themselves causing the RFI problem, more likely its the wiring for them. Where is the antenna for your mobile radio located? Where is the antenna wire run - is it near any power leads that go to the Tomars or any other equipment? Are all of your ground connections tight? Are you using the same power source for the radio and the Tomars (same wire)?

I'd expect you have more than just a set of grill lights on your vehicle since you mention responding, so lets start simple. Disconnect the power and ground lines from the Tomars, so they're completely separate from any electrical connection to your vehicle. Turn all the other lights and radios on, and what happens? Do you still get RFI? If yes, then the Tomars are not the issue. If no, try connecting the power and ground lines for the Tomars directly to your vehicle battery (use a 5-amp fused line, and make sure positive goes to positive, ground to ground, etc) while all the other stuff is still flashing and turned on. Now do you get RFI when the Tomars are wired directly to the battery? If yes, the Tomars are the problem (which I highly doubt). If no RFI when they're directly to the battery but yes when they're connected using your installed wiring, you need to recheck the wiring in your vehicle.


I'm assuming again, but you've got a fuse block with separate power leads for your mobile radio, lights, siren (can you use one when responding?), etc, right? If not, install one so you're not feeding all your devices over one power lead. Check the ground connection from your mobile radio. Actually, check ALL your ground connections, for everything electrical that you're added to the vehicle - mobile radio, all lights, sirens, switch boxes, etc. Check to make sure the antenna is screwed on tight (NMO mount?) Check the antenna wire to make sure it hasn't frayed and exposed the shielding inside to the vehicle metal.


Let us know what you find.

Did a quick size up, and here's what I found:


-All power and grounds appear secure; will ask my installer to check. I do not have a block; all warning equipment is powered from the battery and grounded to the frame; in-line fuses are utilized. My mobile scanner is on an ordinary cigar plug, as I use it in my home as well. I have a little three-switch panel controlling my warning equipment, which is grounded to the steel seat track. I have my two deck lights on the first, dash and grille on the second, then overhead and mirrors on the third. My overhead is on a septate cigar plug wired to a switch, as I wanted to keep it "factory" for the time being and have full flash pattern control (I can never make up my mind).


My siren is grounded in the same fashion on the opposite side.


-Static bursts can be heard coinciding with the Tomar's flash patterns. None of my SOS, FS, or Code 3 products appear to be causing any notable our noteworthy interference. (I do hear EXTREMELY faint pops with my SOS Pinnacle over my scanner, but nothing when actively receiving whatsoever with my pager or scanner).


I set my mobile scanner on a NWS frequency for this test, as interference is only heard when actively receiving. I experience the same phenomenon with my Minitor V. Coax cable appears intact and secure, and antenna is firmly secured to the NMO on my trunk lip. No other bandwidths appear to be affected, just VHF (really wouldn't know otherwise; we only use HB-VHF and 800 digital trunked here).


Again, I only did a quick evaluation on my own, as I did not do my own install and frankly didn't want to tamper with anything too much. I did isolate my lights as much as I could without being too drastic on my own. I will pick up a block if it might help the problem. It has been an ongoing issue since I had the Tomars installed this past fall, and I really don't want to get rid of them.


Thanks!

 

[Jamey@NNE]

Coax is not run along power wires right?

 

[jprleedy4680]

Coax is not run along power wires right?

Nope. Coax is on the opposite end of the vehicle.

 

[afdtravis]

I am experiancing the same issue with the (4) tomar rect-13's in the grill of my response unit. My VHF radio and lights are totally independant, seperate runs feet from each other/seperate power and grounds/antenna is located on the rear of the cab of the pickup. One thing I have noticed in addition to the interferance that kills my mobile radio (Motorola XPR 4550) is that if I am within 10' or so of the lights when their active I pick-up static on my portable radio (Motorola XPR 6550) too. Needless to say not too happy with these lights so far. Their bright as hell but not having comunications is not cool at all.

 

[jprleedy4680]

I am experiancing the same issue with the (4) tomar rect-13's in the grill of my response unit. My VHF radio and lights are totally independant, seperate runs feet from each other/seperate power and grounds/antenna is located on the rear of the cab of the pickup. One thing I have noticed in addition to the interferance that kills my mobile radio (Motorola XPR 4550) is that if I am within 10' or so of the lights when their active I pick-up static on my portable radio (Motorola XPR 6550) too. Needless to say not too happy with these lights so far. Their bright as hell but not having comunications is not cool at all.

Exactly. I've got a pair of SOS LED3's in my cart on Sirennet...seriously thinking about selling my Tomars. I love the lights, but I can't deal with not being able to hear what's going on. I guess I'm out of luck.

 

[WNYEVS]

I have the same issue with these on a tahoe I did. Narrowed it down to the RECT-13's. I am going to replace them with something else unless someone can give me an easier solution.

 

[PTRJason]

Call Tomar, and let them know. They may of had the frequency issue fixed and may offer a replacement. Wont hurt to try.

 

[Sigma Safety]

Just for a test, try wrapping the lights in tinfoil if you can. Completely surround the lights, and make sure there are no gaps at all in the tinfoil coverage. If that solves it, then it's radiated emissions, which is pretty common with some brands of lights. Older (and some newer) whelen lights had this problem too. If the tinfoil doesn't work, then it could be conducted RFI, meaning that the light is outputting RFI over the power/ground wires and transmitting them to the car that way.


You could ask Tomar what RFI class they meet. Either SAE J1113-41 or CISPR25 (the current standard) both have the same classes. Class 1 = noisy, Class 5 = basically silent. You should be hoping for Class 2 or better (3,4,5). I'd suspect Tomar won't be able to tell you what class it is. Not many companies test for RFI or design their products to be RFI silent.

 

[VolEms]

Yes there is an issue. I personally haven't had it but Tomar told me they are getting a lot of complaints and therefore making over the rect13/14.


I would call them I'm sure they will replace them with the new ones. They should be out in a week or so.

 

[jetstream1]

tomar, has figured out, the rect 13/14's cause noise from the circuits on the board itself, they use to make the light able to be used on 12 or 24 volts, thats what is causing the noise on the vhf bands,

 

[Solvarex]

RFI has been a notorious Tomar problem for decades. It's amazing they're still in business. The RCMP for instance have essentially banned Tomar products from their fleet for this reason.

 

[belco]

I am also having the same problems.....

 

[Nick@Feniex]

I am also having the same problems.....

RFI in the engineering world is known as "Black Magic". Its a hard electrical problem to solve. Tomar is a good engineering company. I'm sure they will have this problem fixed soon.

 

[Sigma Safety]

RFI in the engineering world is known as "Black Magic". Its a hard electrical problem to solve. Tomar is a good engineering company. I'm sure they will have this problem fixed soon.

It's not "black magic" if you know what you're doing. And besides, that's why you test your design before putting it into production. Tomar clearly didn't perform any RFI testing on these lights at all.


FYI - we have a number of brand new Victory Commander bikes here with RECT13/14 lights all over it (15 lights, plus 2 x PAR36 lights), installed by Victory at the factory. The police have VHF Motorola trunked radios here, and cannot receive ANY traffic on their radios when the warning lights are on, if they're within 10' of the bike. Also, since the radios are digital and trunked, they have a control channel that the radio must receive. If they can't receive this control channel, then the radio will not transmit either. Clearly, a major safety problem for the officers (they wear portable radios only, no mobiles).


This is a radiated emission problem, not a conducted one. We put our IFR test equipment with a VHF antenna on it, and found a 40dB noise level (see images below) when the lights were on.


We contacted Victory, who contacted Tomar, who said there is a "known issue" with those lights. I gather they're going to be sending us 170 new lights to put on these bikes. It's going to cost Victory a few thousand dollars in labour to swap these all out.

 

[jprleedy4680]

It's not "black magic" if you know what you're doing. And besides, that's why you test your design before putting it into production. Tomar clearly didn't perform any RFI testing on these lights at all.

FYI - we have a number of brand new Victory Commander bikes here with RECT13/14 lights all over it (15 lights, plus 2 x PAR36 lights), installed by Victory at the factory. The police have VHF Motorola trunked radios here, and cannot receive ANY traffic on their radios when the warning lights are on, if they're within 10' of the bike. Also, since the radios are digital and trunked, they have a control channel that the radio must receive. If they can't receive this control channel, then the radio will not transmit either. Clearly, a major safety problem for the officers (they wear portable radios only, no mobiles).


This is a radiated emission problem, not a conducted one. We put our IFR test equipment with a VHF antenna on it, and found a 40dB noise level (see images below) when the lights were on.


We contacted Victory, who contacted Tomar, who said there is a "known issue" with those lights. I gather they're going to be sending us 170 new lights to put on these bikes. It's going to cost Victory a few thousand dollars in labour to swap these all out.


View attachment 35804 View attachment 35805

That's scary.


Sold and swapped my 13s for LED3s, problem solved. Not sure I'll buy any more Tomar products, though.

 

[JohnMarcson]

Has Tomar issued a recall or official statement?

 

[Sigma Safety]

Has Tomar issued a recall or official statement?

Not to my knowledge.


The department has 'grounded' all the bikes now. RFI was so bad that if they had their lights on and pulled up to a police car to chat with the car driver , the police car lost tx/rx capability on their in-car radio and the car driver's portable, too.


Note that we only tested it in the VHF band (136-170) as the customer has a wideband VHF trunked system. We didn't perform any testing for any other frequency bands. It's entirely possible that there is minimal RFI in UHF/700/800 bands, or it may be even noisier - I just don't know.


Nothing says "happy" to a traffic officer like taking 10 new bikes off the road in the middle of summer!