Vehicle search question and entrapment question

Aug 20, 2010
21
I've never been asked to search my vehicle, and wouldn't have anyhting to hide besides allot trash (I live in the car practically). Before anybody says anyhting, yes, I've been pulled over and given tickets. Everytime, I was at fault, I knew it, and took my ticket. Anywho.. (I hope this is in teh right spot, wasn't sure if it should go here or the ring...)


So, my brother and I are talking, and one way or anohter it comes up on police pulling you over, and what the outcomes are. As I said, I've only gotten tickets, and if the officer is in a good mood, just a warning. He get's on about how if they don't have a warrent, and your not under arrest, then you (the police) can't search my vehicle if I say no. He also add's that I can consent to a search, but because there's no warrent, then you can't search the trunk.


1. How much of that is true? Or is he just blowing sunshine dust up my....?


2. If you ask me if I have anything in the car, and I say no and do not consent to a search, does this arouse suspicion? (lets say I'm not under arrest, and you hav me out of my vehicle to speak with me).


As for entrpment, he belives that you guys are getting people arrested by "entrapment". Lemme explain. We were watching COPS, and they were doing a sting or somehting like that. Basically, one cop is undercover in a truck, and a picks up a chick doing tricks. She gets busted, blah blah blah. He claims entrapment. same episode, different county, they set out a car with an expensive bike, stereo, etc. leave it unlocked, and a couple fo folks come and take stuff out of it and are aressted. Same story with him.


Also, there's baitcar. I find it entertaining just for the stuff people say when there busted. But with all the examples I've given, my brother is claiming entrapment. I argues back that nobody put a gun to those people heads and made them do what they did. Yes, the items were put there to be stolen, but the criminals weren't forced to do it. They chose to.


I believe entrapment would be more like if one cop is in front of me, goes code 3, then, a cop behind me goes code 3 , telling me to get out of the way. Well, if I take off too fast ro my wheels spin, and an officer gives em a ticket for that, then that would be entrapment, yes?


So how can I get hime to see that it's not entrapment?


If it matters, he on parole, just help show you his frame of mind.
 

Fast LT1

Member
May 24, 2010
2,018
Sedgwick County, KS
If i pulled you over i wouldn't search the vehicle unless 1 your fidgeting and it appears to me your trying to hide something, 2 your under the influence of a narcotic or alcohol, 3 i have witnessed you visit a known drug sales location, 4 i see something in the car that i believe is illegal, then that gives me probable cause to search your car whether you want me to or not!


And as for the entrapment theory, tell him to deal with it! If someone steals a car, a stereo or whatever, its still theft no matter who it belongs too or how it got there!!!
 

fp13-2

Member
May 20, 2010
354
Harrisburg, PA
Entrapment would be if an undercover officer walked up to you, said "Hey look, there's a bike there, you should take it", and then arrests you for taking it. They suggested it, which is what makes it entrapment. If they leave a car with the doors unlocked or whatnot and you decide on your own to steal it, that is not entrapment, because no one is making you steal it.


As for the vehicle search, that varies by state. Some states you agree to allow a search when you sign for your license. Either way, as soon as you deny a search you arouse suspicion, they call a K9 officer, dog alerts on the car, now they have probable cause to search, no warrant needed.
 

Stendec

Member
May 21, 2010
816
fp13-2 said:
Entrapment would be if an undercover officer walked up to you, said "Hey look, there's a bike there, you should take it", and then arrests you for taking it. They suggested it, which is what makes it entrapment. If they leave a car with the doors unlocked or whatnot and you decide on your own to steal it, that is not entrapment, because no one is making you steal it.

Very well done explanation.


Vehicle searches are handled differently from searches of residences. The basis for determining the Constitutionality of vehicle searches starts with whats called the Carroll doctrine and then branches into a bout a zillion different directions. It is routinely addressed in individual seizure suppression cases.


You can consent to a search of anything or place in which you have legal standing. You can also withdraw that consent at any time.


It took me about 3 minutes to type this. IANAL, so I'll only charge $235 for my research and services :lol:
 

mcpd2025

Member
May 20, 2010
1,557
Maryland, USA
Also, if you consent to a search, they can search the entire car, trunk too. A big reason to search is drugs, which is where the Carroll doctrine comes into play. I pull you over, based upon my training and experience I smell the odor of a drug. I have the legal authority to seize the vehicle and search, without consent or a warrant, based upon the odor of the drug.


If a cop asks for consent to search, you have every right in the world to deny them permission to search. Chances are, thats going to raise a red flag and perhaps cause the cop to search for any and all legal reasons to search. If they haven't come forward with a citation/warning/repair order, they can slowly write it out while waiting for a drug dog to scan the vehicle. Supreme court has ruled that a "normal" traffic stop is 15 to 20 minutes, so an officer can legally detain you for that period of time to get a dog.... as long as they haven't yet issued paper on the stop.


I've never been asked to submit to a search, and I certainly have nothing to hide, however I personally probably would not submit to a search, because I do not want to go thru the hassle. Since I don't want to go thru that, I limit the amount of people I subject to searches when I am at work. If I don't have PC to search, I rarely ask for permission or seek legal ways to search.
 

unlisted

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 20, 2010
7,333
NA
This thread sounds sketchy.. hey OP, you sure its your brother in question, and not yourself? ;)
 

HILO

Member
May 20, 2010
2,781
Grand Prairie Texas
In Texas, you can decline a search of your vehicle. However, a dog can be brought out to sniff, or (in Dallas, this is a fav) an officer can find enough to arrest instead of ticket (usually 3 or more traffic cites will do), and impound your car. In order for the car to go to the pound, the AO has to take an inventory of the vehicle, including the trunk, as to ensure nothing gets stolen from the AP. Alot of drugs, guns, and stolen property is found this way, and completly legal.
 

Ben E.

Member
May 21, 2010
2,417
Iowa, USA
HILO said:
In Texas, you can decline a search of your vehicle. However, a dog can be brought out to sniff, or (in Dallas, this is a fav) an officer can find enough to arrest instead of ticket (usually 3 or more traffic cites will do), and impound your car. In order for the car to go to the pound, the AO has to take an inventory of the vehicle, including the trunk, as to ensure nothing gets stolen from the AP. Alot of drugs, guns, and stolen property is found this way, and completly legal.

This is why I love our tow policy, we get a lot of stuff the same way. However, we don't use it ONLY on cars we suspect of containing contraband, we tow three times as many other vehicles that we have no suspicion of anything but they still fall under our tow policy (no insurance, expired registration, arrest etc...). The policy makes it nice because we tow so many vehicles routinely, that when we come up with contraband in a vehicle performing an inventory for a tow, we can articulate that we didn't tow the car just to search it.
 

Mike L.

Member
May 21, 2010
261
Everett, WA
If I were you I would sign up to take a Criminal Justice 101 class.


First issue searching. A government agent (LEO) can not search your vehicle without a warrant. That is true in most circumstances. However, there are some exceptions. First, if you give me consent to search then I can search your entire vehicle. Keep in mind that you can revoke the consent at any time. Second, If I see you making furtive movements, and have reasonable suspicion I can search the area within your immediate reach. Third, if a K9 hits on your vehicle (drug or explosive dog) then I can search that area regardless of what you say. Forth, if you are under arrest I can perform a search incident to arrest and search the area under your immediate reach (which is a pretty large area of the vehicle). Keep in mind that I can "Arrest" you and then release you on your personal recognisance as well; DWLS 2nd and 3rd, Neg driving, Reckless driving, etc. are just some examples of what can get you a Criminal Traffic citation which is considered an arrest even though I don't take you to jail. And yes I get to search your car for those.


Entrapment is simply an officer putting the idea into your head. If I am looking your brand new car over and say "wow this looks like a fast car, I bet you can't hit 100mph before the stoplight" that would be entrapment. The fact that a police dept. places UC's in an area to observe behavior and make arrests based on those observations is NOT entrapment.
 

Ben E.

Member
May 21, 2010
2,417
Iowa, USA
Mike L. said:
If I were you I would sign up to take a Criminal Justice 101 class.

First issue searching. A government agent (LEO) can not search your vehicle without a warrant. That is true in most circumstances. However, there are some exceptions. First, if you give me consent to search then I can search your entire vehicle. Keep in mind that you can revoke the consent at any time. Second, If I see you making furtive movements, and have reasonable suspicion I can search the area within your immediate reach. Third, if a K9 hits on your vehicle (drug or explosive dog) then I can search that area regardless of what you say. Forth, if you are under arrest I can perform a search incident to arrest and search the area under your immediate reach (which is a pretty large area of the vehicle). Keep in mind that I can "Arrest" you and then release you on your personal recognisance as well; DWLS 2nd and 3rd, Neg driving, Reckless driving, etc. are just some examples of what can get you a Criminal Traffic citation which is considered an arrest even though I don't take you to jail. And yes I get to search your car for those.


Entrapment is simply an officer putting the idea into your head. If I am looking your brand new car over and say "wow this looks like a fast car, I bet you can't hit 100mph before the stoplight" that would be entrapment. The fact that a police dept. places UC's in an area to observe behavior and make arrests based on those observations is NOT entrapment.

On the 4th point, I think I need to clarify (which I'm sure you know), that the "search incident to arrest" in the Belton case is no longer valid according to Arizona vs. Gant, unless the person you are arresting is unsecured, and you are searching the area within their immediate area. Not that I'm saying that's not what you meant, but I thought I should clarify for those that didn't know.
 

Stendec

Member
May 21, 2010
816
And just to cover all the bases, there is the border exception, which I'd prefer a Border guy to explain.


And if he is on parole, there may be conditions written into his release that provide for warrantless searches, though I understand that those are getting fewer and fewer.
 

surf_kat

Member
May 28, 2010
58
SE AZ
Stendec said:
And just to cover all the bases, there is the border exception, which I'd prefer a Border guy to explain.

I don't think there is enough storage space on the server to get into border searches! CBPdogboy is the better authority for Port Of Entry searches, but suffice it to say anyone making an entry between the POEs are subject to search as a 'functional equivalent of the border' under Title 19. Even if that vehicle crossed the AZ/Mexico border and proceeded inland to Albuquerque without stopping at a POE (and without material change) it could be searched as if it were at the border.
 

PJD642

New Member
May 20, 2010
1,543
east of Cleveland
fp13-2 said:
Either way, as soon as you deny a search you arouse suspicion, they call a K9 officer, dog alerts on the car, now they have probable cause to search, no warrant needed.
I've been asked for consent and I didn't give it, just because I'm contrary. Was told to have a nice afternoon and we both drove off with no further issues. Never did ID myself as a cop on that stop....


Simple refusal to consent does not, alone, constitute reasonable suspicion for detention while awaiting a K-9 response. Moreover, when I get called to a scene to have my dog do a sniff the first thing I do is I speak with the officer who made the stop to see what indicators he observed that lead him to believe there is contraband in the car. If all he has is "refusal to consent", I'm gone and the dog never even gets out of the truck.


And if the guys in your area have dogs that alert on every car they sniff, you either a) have a LOT of people with dope in their cars, or B) piss-poor trained dogs/cops.


In Ohio, if the dog alerts, I get to search the ENTIRE car, including engine compartment and trunk. I understand in PA a dog alert isn't grounds for a search for some reason. Sucks to be them. :)
 

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