Why are white LAWs frowned upon for rear ?

[deputybubba]

Just a general question, I've seen a couple of threads where people don't like white LED flashers to the rear.


This is the setup we have on our patrol SUV's, white LED/Strobe ( don't know which ) in the backup light housing.


Along with the rear of the light bar and a couple of LEDs on a license plate holder.


Thanks for any insight.

 

[runesson]

Here´s my humble opinion, based upon the "curriculum" in my part of the world:


Safe(!) emergency driving (and directing/blocking) is first and foremost about good communication with the surrounding traffic; making it clear what you are and what you are doing. If other drivers perceive these two things/facts (and paid a little attention in drivers ed.), they should be able to yield safely and allow you to move effectively through traffic.


In that perspective, different colors mean different things. Sure different countries and states have different color-combinations for different emergency vehicles (all blue in my art of the world), but some things can be confusing anywhere, especially at night when the flashing lights are all you see!


Flashing white HAWs (LED or strobe) in the rear lights-assemblies can "overpower" the red taillights at night and confuse approaching drivers. If all you see is flashing white lights and other warninglights, it is possible to be confused about which way the vehicle is facing. I know it sound dumd, but don´t underestimate the potential for confusion, and following irrational behaviour, with blinded drivers!


For the same reason; flashing different colors togehter will create new colors, undermining the purpose of the specific color-combination. Example: flashing red and blue together/simultaneously will become a purple blob at night :crazy: :crazy: in stead of clear flashes of red and blue.


The point is to equip your emergency vehicle with lights that improve peoples ability to perceive what you are and what you are doing, including which way you are facing at night. :yes: As such; some people, me included, have experienced that white HAWs in the rear lightsassemblies can achieve the opposite effect. :no:

 

[7d9_z28]

yeah that.


Its white in general, not just LAWs. Like NFPA no clear to the rear type setups in lightbars on fire trucks.


The only time I see clear to the rear to be fit, is the rear light flashers that flash the tail/brake lights and the reverse lights alternately on Police cars. I find myself seeing that before a lightbar at times, when an officer has someone pulled over on the side of the road.

 

[Quickstep80]

I also think that white is not a color which should be emitted to the rear - and besides, it's forbidden on our side of the pond (hello to all European eLightbar-members, btw. ). Furthermore, white does not give a real statement to other road traffic users (I was just about to write "it doesn't give a clear statement..." :bonk: :haha: ...).


Personally I support any effort to help other motorists to quickly identify what is going on when they see flashing lights.


Therefore, I want to distinguish between


* Emergency warning lights, may they be red, blue or any combination, which tell others to get out of the way since there's a responding vehicle approaching;


* Hazard warning lights, mostly amber, which identify any road obstacle - be it a construction site, a parked ambulance or a slowly moving convoy;


* If applicable, courtesy lights (could be green, for example), which indicate that there's a responder in a POV asking for the right of way without having special authority.


White, in any case, does not really express what's going on. It is very bright and eye-catching indeed, so it can be helpful to use a few (!) white flashing lights to the front to grab peoples' attention, as long as they can then easily identify what's going on (which, in most circumstances, will be an approaching emergency vehicle in the rear view mirror). To the rear I can't see the necessity of having additional white "attention grabbers", since people are looking forward while driving anyway so they will recognize warning lights much earlier. It's then the point to clearly give them information about how to act - e.g. by using a traffic arrow.


The fact that most European countries use blue only for emergency warning lights is just due to the fact that usually "red" indicates the rear of a vehicle and "white" the front.

 

[Sigma Safety]

I guess the real question is why would you WANT to use white to the rear?


White to the rear became popular a number of years ago when corner strobes (not LEDs) were starting to show up. The coloured strobes sucked in terms of colour (red looked pink, etc.). Also, someone got it in their head that you could see white farther away than any other colour, which with strobes was probably correct.


LEDs have changed that all as white is not really the best colour any longer. Red tends to be the brightest colour in terms of intensity.


Some reasons NOT to use white to the rear;

• it violates SAE J2498 which is an industry-standard for emergency warning
  
• it violates NFPA (a fire standard, but still worth considering)
  
• white provides no immediate recognition and can be confused for other lights
  

By "no immediate recognition" I mean the often-forgotten 2nd stage of warning. The first stage is detection - a driver has to physically see your lights. The next is recognition - the driver has to understand what the light means. The 3rd stage is response -the driver has to take some action (brake, swerve, etc).


Even in the strobe days, white provided good detection, but very poor recognition. If you ask someone what a flashing white light means, they won't be able to give you a good, instant answer. If you ask someone what flashing amber means, everyone knows it means a hazard ahead. If people can see your lights but can't understand the message they're sending, then the lights are just about useless. It would be like making stop lights blue instead of red. No one would know what they mean, even though they can physically see it, so they're not likely to stop.


I would suggest amber to the rear. It is a great universally-recognized "hazard" colour, stands out from a sea of brake lights (as opposed to red which can blend in), and provides better all-weather light penetration than blue. Have some red and blue to the rear, sure, but have some ambers as well.


Some officers I've dealt with say "I don't want amber because I want drivers to recognize me as a police car". Ok, I get that, but if they can see amber farther away than red or blue, then who cares if they initially think you are a police car, fire truck, or garbage truck. The key is to get the driver slowing down so they don't hit you. As they get closer, they'll see the reds and blues and recognize who you are.


You might be interested in this study (PDF); https://copy.com/9zbhr302uY4qyxeR . Note that it's from a few years ago so deals mostly with strobe and halogen, but the basic principals are the same.

 

[Sigma Safety]

White, in any case, does not really express what's going on. It is very bright and eye-catching indeed, so it can be helpful to use a few (!) white flashing lights to the front to grab peoples' attention, as long as they can then easily identify what's going on (which, in most circumstances, will be an approaching emergency vehicle in the rear view mirror). To the rear I can't see the necessity of having additional white "attention grabbers", since people are looking forward while driving anyway so they will recognize warning lights much earlier. It's then the point to clearly give them information about how to act - e.g. by using a traffic arrow.

Bingo! This is exactly right. I would also add that it's a good idea to use slower flash patterns to the rear. You want lots of "on" time so people can get proper depth perception (they can tell how far away the police car is from them, especially at night or in bad weather), and also you want a slower, strong pattern sequence that warns but doesn't panic people. To the front, that's different - you want lots of activity since you need to catch people's attention (often via their peripheral vision, which is colour blind anyway).


Front and rear warning lights do very different jobs. Just because fast flashing white/blue/red in wild patterns to the front works, doesn't mean that it'll work for the rear as well.

 

[acala91]

I personally like a set of clear HAWs to the rear. They give a nice 'pop' that is very noticeable at night, but they aren't bright enough to be blinding.

 

[HILO]

Years ago, the studies found that a blue strobe was the most effective warning light in rain, snow, sleet, and fog. Once HAW strobe heads became popular, they found their way into reverse lights. I ran clear HAW strobes in my reverse lights for 17 years. Much like LED's, a clear strobe is still putting out a hint of blue. My set ups were always to have HAW strobs in the reverse lights, deck lights, and roof. Deck and Roof were for my warning colors, and the reverse lights were for the attention. Of course in Texas, clear/white is limited to emergency vehicles. I have no problem with a clear HAW in the reverse lights, but then I'm a rebel and like a flashing third brake light as well.

 

[deputybubba]

Well thanks for the replies....


I'm not sure I love the amber LEDs idea, but I might be stuck in the 'but I'm a police car' mind set.


still have to try and finalize my setup.


Thanks for the insights.

 

[ryanm]

Depending on the colors you run, I really like doing a set of red LAWs in the the taillights and a set of blue in the reverse housings. This gives you an easy way to alternate red/blue.

 

[chief1562]

Also think of it this way would you like coming upon a scene with somebody holding a 1 mil spot light on you as you approch?

 

[PJD642]

Also think of it this way would you like coming upon a scene with somebody holding a 1 mil spot light on you as you approch?

Not quite the same thing...even a focused strobe, while temporarily blinding if pointed directly at your face, fades quickly, as opposed to a steady beam of light directed at your face.


I personally like white strobes/LAWs in the reverse lights. On my Explorer, they help "frame" the corners of the vehicle, as well as attract attention from motorists approaching. I've got sufficient Red/Blue on the rear to make it obvious I'm an emergency vehicle, and they don't overpower the tail or brake lamps.


I dislike "traffic backers" that rapid flash and alternate the back-up lamps with the taillights. Yes, they are eye catching, but I don't like anything that distracts from brake lights being JUST brake lights - they light up, that means the vehicle is slowing down. I've seen several near misses and one crash from the following cop not realizing the brake lights were steady-on after following them in "flash" mode on a lengthy run. (Yes, it was his own fault, but the added time it took to realize the vehicle in front was braking is directly attributable to him being conditioned to their constant flashing...extended the OODA loop by a couple of seconds).

 

[chief1562]

Not quite the same thing...even a focused strobe, while temporarily blinding if pointed directly at your face, fades quickly, as opposed to a steady beam of light directed at your face.

I personally like white strobes/LAWs in the reverse lights. On my Explorer, they help "frame" the corners of the vehicle, as well as attract attention from motorists approaching. I've got sufficient Red/Blue on the rear to make it obvious I'm an emergency vehicle, and they don't overpower the tail or brake lamps.


I dislike "traffic backers" that rapid flash and alternate the back-up lamps with the taillights. Yes, they are eye catching, but I don't like anything that distracts from brake lights being JUST brake lights - they light up, that means the vehicle is slowing down. I've seen several near misses and one crash from the following cop not realizing the brake lights were steady-on after following them in "flash" mode on a lengthy run. (Yes, it was his own fault, but the added time it took to realize the vehicle in front was braking is directly attributable to him being conditioned to their constant flashing...extended the OODA loop by a couple of seconds).

Well I've seen people almost hit the ambulance becuse they had the scene lights on in the rear because they couldn't see the firepolice standing there all the saw was a silhouette in the light. Dam things are bright.

 

[FollowingNFront]

All I have to say on this subject is come to NYC and observe the MANY MANY MANY NYPD police vehicles with Red/White lights to the rear and you will have a different perspective from the ones you read about on this site. I grew up in NYC and I really have no prob with white to the rear.

 

[FSEP]

Here's another bone in the argument:


many PD undercover/secret-squirrel units have only a few lights on them, even more so to the rear... So the red/white combo in the rear is a great addition to these unit, especially when you may only have dual or single light head in the rear.


*disclaimer** I do not support the use of only one single or dual deck light as the only "rear" warning on a unit. At the very least on a slick top unit, 4 light heads + RLF/tail&reverse lights*

 

[Eric1249]

I had red leds in my brake lights and clear in the reverse light. I had them on a fast flash to mimic a tail light flasher. With the faster flash they clear was not as bright. I liked having a little contrast to all the red. I got rid of the clears and put amber in my rear bar. I personally don't mind just a little clear to the rear as long as it is not blinding.

 

[PJD642]

Well I've seen people almost hit the ambulance becuse they had the scene lights on in the rear because they couldn't see the firepolice standing there all the saw was a silhouette in the light. Dam things are bright.

I'm not exactly arguing with you, I'm just saying not all white to the rear is bad.... There's two issues with the scenario you describe: 1) the idiots driving should have slowed the F* down when they approached that big blob of white light until they could A) tell what it was, and B) safely maneuver around it, and 2) the FP were standing too close to the rig if their presence was inside the "halo" of white light. I tell my rookies to figure out where a reasonable person could safely recognize a stopped emergency vehicle, and then drop flares/stand at least another 100 feet further down. Makes for a lengthy walk sometimes, but its necessary.

 

[DJIceman97]

It depends on how you use them. If half of your lights are clear, then of course it's going to grab attention in day, and harm someone at night. Use sparingly, as needed (like your favorite seasoning). I see no problem with using strobes/dimmer clear LED's in the tail lights. I have strobes in mine right now, and they give an added grab of attention when on the side of the road. Before I had strobes, if I pulled up on a DMV or incident, cars were quite reluctant to move. But as soon as the strobes were in, cars would yield and merge at the earliest convenience. I will be changing mine out to split red/white, that way the clear isn't too overpowering, and can be functionally used. YMMV

 

[JohnMarcson]

Like any other decision it comes with some risk based on location. In some areas clear to the rear is flat out not allowed depending on vehicle type. Where it is allowed it's prohibited by enough standards to be a liability IMHO. If your white/clear to the rear is anything but blinding, your lights are not mounted to produce maximum brightness. White to the rear is blinding, disorienting, and often flashed as to prevent distance perception. Amber works just as well if installed correctly as long as the housing is suited to the purpose.

 

[chief1562]

I'm not exactly arguing with you, I'm just saying not all white to the rear is bad.... There's two issues with the scenario you describe: 1) the idiots driving should have slowed the F* down when they approached that big blob of white light until they could A) tell what it was, and B) safely maneuver around it, and 2) the FP were standing too close to the rig if their presence was inside the "halo" of white light. I tell my rookies to figure out where a reasonable person could safely recognize a stopped emergency vehicle, and then drop flares/stand at least another 100 feet further down. Makes for a lengthy walk sometimes, but its necessary.

The part in bold I agree with you but when you have a call and the other VFD will not listen to you about putting people so close to the rig. Not much you can do.Alway conflict with them.


My last postion which reflects my name here was Fire Police Chief and I told my people to be aleast 50' from the rig just incase that had somebody who reacted to late to their warnings and that way they had a little better chance of not hitting anybody or the rig. Safiest is 100'and 25' for each additional rig on the scene. Closer if the scene is on a curve.

 

[Storm4200]

i think clear strobes or white LAWs in reverse light housings, are a great attention grabber , especially during the day. IMO, it adds a nice contrast to an otherwise all R/B set up. Theyre used on nearly 95% of police cars that ive ever seen and theyve NEVER blinded me. Not once. Not in rain, not even in snow. What blinds me is the fully populated liberty, the 8 head InnerEdge on the rear deck, and the 25 other lights that they cram in the rear window. Someone mentioned white being like your favorite spice. NOT TOO MUCH.... a little to the front, and even less to the rear. I have clear strobes in my reverse lights and i love them, but i do find myself only using them during the day.

 

[FSEP]

If you get blinded by white haws in a reverse light, but you arnt by a fully decked out light bar, there's something wrong going on with you...

 

[FollowingNFront]

I've never been blinded by an NYPD vehicle with white to the rear.....

Its a fact that blue light damages your eyes more than any other color! Believe it or not, looking at a white light is much better for your eyes than looking at a blue light. There have been studies on this.

 

[twitchy]

A local Fire department where I am at uses white LEDs 360 degrees on all ambulances... the difference is, they are wired into a park kill system so when the vehicle is in park, the whites turn off, leaving only red/amber... As I have experienced at night, the white gives a great deal of visibility at longer ranges...

 

[runesson]

I've never been blinded by an NYPD vehicle with white to the rear.....

Blue on the other hand....


Its a fact that blue light damages your eyes more than any other color! Believe it or not, looking at a white light is much better for your eyes than looking at a blue light. There have been studies on this.

That´s a pretty poor illustration of this discussion; daytime close up videos of white lights, compared to a nightime video of several police vehicles without low-light dimming (which is definitelly blinding and dangerous!!)!


The original discussion in this thread is not about what is better for your eyes, just how to best communicate what you are and what you are doing. In that sense, mixing the two most common colors in traffic as warning, doesn´t sound like a good idea. Neither is fully populated modern lightbars, often including flashing worklights+alley+tds, without low-light dimming!

 

[FollowingNFront]

several police vehicles without low-light dimming (which is definitelly blinding and dangerous!!)!

I don't think NYPD dims their lights at night or has that capability.... I agree it is a poor illustration but it was the best I could find on youtube.... But the fact of the matter is, the NYPD vehicles I've seen with white to the rear are less disorienting than the ones with blue... White being "blinding" has come up in this thread which is the reason why I brought it up.

 

[Sigma Safety]

....when they approached that big blob of white light until they could A) tell what it was, and B)

Remember that whether a white light blinds a driver or not isn't the whole issue here. As per the statement above, white light doesn't communicate a message.


We've all seen cars and trucks hit while on the road, even with all their lights on. Clearly in most cases the offending driver saw the lights (unless they had their head down, texting or something stupid), but hit the car anyway. Why?


I would suggest one of a number of reasons;


- they saw the lights but didn't know what it was, so didn't slow down or change lanes


- they saw the lights but didn't know how far away it was, so they didn't react in time


- they saw the lights but couldn't pinpoint where the car was (is it in my lane, or not?) so didn't react


There are probably a number of other options. My point is that they can see the lights, not react, and hit the police/fire/ems vehicle. There's a lot of discussion on this board and this thread about seeing the lights, but you also have to recognize the signal they are trying to convey ,then take appropriate action to avoid the emerg. vehicle.


So whether white is blinding or not isn't the real issue here. Also consider ;


- white to rear (at any time, moving or stopped) violates SAE and NFPA standards


- white to rear is not a colour that communicates a message, therefore makes it difficult for a motorist to understand the signal and therefore react to it


I really don't get why people go off and do their own things even though there are 2 clear, published standards on this. Both SAE and NFPA are crafted by engineers and emergency personnel that have extensively studied these things. Personally I'll rely on their findings more than I will my seat-of-the-pants feeling about what colours are best. Also, if one of your vehicles gets smacked, you want to have a leg to stand on in court. A sly lawyer will say your vehicle didn't comply to the international standards and you risk a lawsuit. Why risk it?

 

[FollowingNFront]

I do believe it varies by region. As Ive said before many NYPD vehicles have white to the rear and even more did a decade ago... So I dont think itis against the law in NY. Remember different regions have different rules. So your opinion may be based on growing up where white to the rear is unheard of... Whereas Im coming from having been brought up where blue to the rear was unheard of.

 

[Sigma Safety]

I do believe it varies by region. As Ive said before many NYPD vehicles have white to the rear and even more did a decade ago... So I dont think itis against the law in NY. Remember different regions have different rules. So your opinion may be based on growing up where white to the rear is unheard of... Whereas Im coming from having been brought up where blue to the rear was unheard of.

We used to have a lot of white to the rear here. Agencies have been changing away from that due to the SAE standard and possible liability. RCMP (4000 cars) and Vancouver PD (200 front line cars) used white to rear , but RCMP has essentially banned that now, and Vancouver PD is actively getting away from it. It doesn't help that Ford UI's come with white LEDs to rear from the factory, though. RCMP orders them with reds to the rear, which you can do if you order 1000 cars/year from Ford, I guess.


I'm not aware of any fire apparatus here that use flashing white to the rear.

 

[chief1562]

I do believe it varies by region. As Ive said before many NYPD vehicles have white to the rear and even more did a decade ago... So I dont think itis against the law in NY. Remember different regions have different rules. So your opinion may be based on growing up where white to the rear is unheard of... Whereas Im coming from having been brought up where blue to the rear was unheard of.

Ok all your profile says is you are a member and from NY. Just what do you do, where are you exactly, and what are you basing you comments on?


And you might want to read this. NYS GTSC - Vehicle & Traffic Law - Section 375 (41)

 

[11b101abn]

Well thanks for the replies....
I'm not sure I love the amber LEDs idea, but I might be stuck in the 'but I'm a police car' mind set.


still have to try and finalize my setup.


Thanks for the insights.

I really think you would be amazed with how visible even ONE amber lighthead in your lightbar will make you. I have two amber in the rear of my bar,and they make all the difference during the hours of day light.


Putting a traffic director of some type, with a slow warning flash on your rear deck is a very effective option, and can also be seen when your trunk lid is raised.

 

[11b101abn]

i think clear strobes or white LAWs in reverse light housings, are a great attention grabber , especially during the day. IMO, it adds a nice contrast to an otherwise all R/B set up. Theyre used on nearly 95% of police cars that ive ever seen and theyve NEVER blinded me. Not once. Not in rain, not even in snow. What blinds me is the fully populated liberty, the 8 head InnerEdge on the rear deck, and the 25 other lights that they cram in the rear window. Someone mentioned white being like your favorite spice. NOT TOO MUCH.... a little to the front, and even less to the rear. I have clear strobes in my reverse lights and i love them, but i do find myself only using them during the day.

Funny you mentioned that.


I de-popped the rear of the Liberty on my car. The two center sections are blank now.


Just to illustrate, now it's: B A B - - B A B. I use the hell out my ambers, usually shutting down my blues and corners on traffic stops, and activating them on some calls.


I have the entire bar on Comet flash, and it reminds me of the 8 head edge bars that I loved so much.

 

[FollowingNFront]

Ok all your profile says is you are a member and from NY. Just what do you do, where are you exactly, and what are you basing you comments on?
And you might want to read this. NYS GTSC - Vehicle & Traffic Law - Section 375 (41)

I am an EMT and I live and work in NYC. I grew up in NYC and in the 20+ years of being in this city I've seen how JUST over the past few years the NYPD has started implementing blue to the rear. And that goes for EMS and Fire as well as they JUST started implementing blue to the rear even more recently. PD being first to implement blue, EMS being second, and Fire being third.... For the majority of my life the NYPD has had red/white/amber to the rear and blue is essentially new in that regard. I don't have to read the V&T I know what it says. Come to New York City and you will see that many of the NYPD RMPs and unmarkeds STILL have white to the rear!

 

[firefighter7017]

I have never been blinded by limited white to the rear, such as strobes in a tail light housing. However, I have been blinded on numerous occasions when I'm driving down the road at night and the genius cop with the full populated bar has no idea what the dimmer feature is.


White to the rear is not all bad. Like most things, if overdone it can become a serious problem. If it's just a set of strobes or clear HAW's, there's no problem. My $0.02

 

[foxtrot5]

I have never been blinded by limited white to the rear, such as strobes in a tail light housing. However, I have been blinded on numerous occasions when I'm driving down the road at night and the genius cop with the full populated bar has no idea what the dimmer feature is.

White to the rear is not all bad. Like most things, if overdone it can become a serious problem. If it's just a set of strobes or clear HAW's, there's no problem. My $0.02

I agree. All LEO in SC runs all blue (occasionally with 1 or 2 amber heads) bars and I've never seen a single one that knew what the low power feature was. Those are blinding as heck at night, especially when there are multiple cars around.

 

[deputybubba]

the setup would be on a 2010 chevy silverado, so no worry about the trunk lid.


I'm thinking of cannon's in the backup light sockets, set to work as backup lights and flash when rear bar is on.


This with a red/blue T6 on the license plate ( rear ) and a set of cobra 400's in the rear window.


Thanks for the responses , I had no idea the cannon's could do both duties