Wisconsin Supreme Court: No siren=No immunity
- Thread starter ISU_Cyclone
- Start date
firefighter31
Member
julietbravosierra
Member
flooded basement? hence why I don't activate my lights until I KNOW what the emergency I'm responding to is... :duh:
Accidents happen...but it's always somebody's fault....
It appears this could have been easily avoided. Still sucks though
Accidents happen...but it's always somebody's fault....
It appears this could have been easily avoided. Still sucks though
Always follow your department SOP/SOGs when responding to calls for service....
And I think it should be common sense not to break an intersection without some kind of noise-maker on...
And I think it should be common sense not to break an intersection without some kind of noise-maker on...
chief1562
Member
That's why around here if you're not a chief (rls) and just a bl minion you have to stop at all stop lights and wait your turn and hope somebody will pull over and let you pass. Not to mention obey the traffic laws and the speed limit.
If not it's your ticket and your problem.
Speaking from a blue vollie state.
If not it's your ticket and your problem.
Speaking from a blue vollie state.
He should have yielded to the red light regardless. It states he did not know what the call was so it was a "unknown type emergency" call as my dispatch calls it. That alone tells me do not take any risk like running a red light.
HILO
Member
Always clear your intersections!
That being said, to incur $100,000 in medical for an intersection crash is a bit much in my experience. That kind of injury comes from high speed, improper use of, or no restraints, or is simply over inflated by a shyster PI lawyer. I'm pretty sure Federal standards mandate a roadway with a red light have a speed limit no greater than 50mph. A intersection crash between two vehicles, both doing 50mph can result in broken bones, more so in older vehicles. But any vehicle with air bags and locking seat belts will reduce the chances of broken bones, and serious tissue injury if the occupants are wearing their seat belts, and have the seat backs in an upright position. Yes, the VFF should have stopped and cleared the intersection, and should have been running a siren if allowed by his state. But I find the dollar amount of the medical claim to be high.
That being said, to incur $100,000 in medical for an intersection crash is a bit much in my experience. That kind of injury comes from high speed, improper use of, or no restraints, or is simply over inflated by a shyster PI lawyer. I'm pretty sure Federal standards mandate a roadway with a red light have a speed limit no greater than 50mph. A intersection crash between two vehicles, both doing 50mph can result in broken bones, more so in older vehicles. But any vehicle with air bags and locking seat belts will reduce the chances of broken bones, and serious tissue injury if the occupants are wearing their seat belts, and have the seat backs in an upright position. Yes, the VFF should have stopped and cleared the intersection, and should have been running a siren if allowed by his state. But I find the dollar amount of the medical claim to be high.
Squad-6 said:
Totally depends on the department. I know of departments that run full code until the first arriving unit gets there and determines that everyone else can slow down or cancel. One should always be familiar with the latest department policies and procedures, especially for something as routine yet risky as response, regardless of if it's in a department vehicle, personal vehicle, or whatever.
I don't know why this is news - you aren't granted the status of an authorized emergency vehicle unless: The exemptions granted by sub. (2) ( B) , © and (d) apply only when the operator of the emergency vehicle is giving both such visual signal and also an audible signal by means of a siren or exhaust whistle, except as otherwise provided in sub. (4) or (4m). - 346.03 (3). It's been in black and white since I took EVOC in 1999.
Furthermore, the exception that he was under - 346.03(2)( B) states the following: ( B) Proceed past a red or stop signal or stop sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe operation.
So he was in the wrong no matter what.
Furthermore, the exception that he was under - 346.03(2)( B) states the following: ( B) Proceed past a red or stop signal or stop sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe operation.
So he was in the wrong no matter what.
My personal knowledge of this department is that they are allowed red lights only as "courtesy lights". No sirens allowed per policy, even though state statute allows it.
This case wasn't debating whether the VFF was right or wrong, but whether he can be sued as an individual. Apparently, no siren equals no immunity from civil suits. This FD should either eliminate POV warning lights all together or allow sirens so their members aren't on the hook in case of a collision.
This case wasn't debating whether the VFF was right or wrong, but whether he can be sued as an individual. Apparently, no siren equals no immunity from civil suits. This FD should either eliminate POV warning lights all together or allow sirens so their members aren't on the hook in case of a collision.
CHIEFOPS said:
Well it does a little bit. If he had one, there wouldn't had been a case. Because he didn't, they argued for scope of work which the court agreed and then limited the claims against him. Keep in mind this doesn't become case law for everyone, but the opinions could be cited in future cases.
I find it interesting that WI has immunity against civil suit, in MI I know we have it outside of negligence for criminal charges, but not civil recourse. I am going to look into it but if someone else knows anything, speak up!
And to the fella who thought 100k was high, this was just related to the medical bills, I imagine tort in WI could include damages for loss of wages, loss of function, emotional, physical trama, post-op care, etc.. I don't know anything about this accident but running a red light sounds like a sudden stop accident which in my experience tend to be the worse...
First of all, I'm not sure what accidents anybody has been to, but I've seen T-bone intersection accidents and less than 30mph that were nearly fatal. Take away the side air bags of the newest vehicles, and there is not much to protect someone from side impact. Also, it doesn't take much to rack up a $100,000.00 medical bill these days. One surgery for a broken bone alone with ER care and an ambulance ride will get you to that # in a hurry. Now, on to the light response. I have served on three different departments in my 20 year volunteer career. One of the departments I was on allowed Blue lights, but no siren. We had multiple stop lights I had to respond through. Whenever I would see that the light was red or anticipated it turning red, I would shut my front Blue's off and wait for the light to turn green. Our FD didn't allow for me to go through a red light under any circumstances and our Chief stated that on more than one occasion. :no: :hissyfit: Even had one of our firemen lose his blue light permit for violating this policy. :duh: You get there, when you get there......but you gotta get there first. Be safe all!
mjMIff said:
Again, I see nothing in this case that hinged on the presence or absence of a siren.
bwoodruff
Member
ISU_Cyclone said:
Agreed. I thought it was bad enough in courtesy light states where the colored lights for VFFs are different from the colors used on emergency vehicles... but to put emergency colors on a non-emergency vehicle (which without a siren, it isn't one)... seems crazy. Completely agree with your proposed solutions, though I'd lobby for the latter.
I'd also lobby for not running code unless you know what the emergency is that you are responding to. Do they not have voice pagers where the dispatchers relay the call to them after the tones go out? Running code to a flooded basement seems equally asinine.
Eric1249
Member
I am in the same county and I have the same dispatcher(s). When we are dispatched we are basically told what the call is for. (unless he had pager issues) Each dept around here has different rules on lights and sirens.