You Ever Feel Responsible For Something Happening at a Call?
- Thread starter DaveCN5
- Start date
Hopefully you'll find your peace. The only offering I can give you is this; "Sometimes there's just nothing you can do". That's THE SHITTIEST answer that could possibly be given but I've come to terms that sometimes it's still the best and only answer.
I responded to an MVA last week where a kid hit some above ground fuel tanks and they exploded burning him alive in the car. Even though I know in my head 100% that there was nothing I PERSONALLY could have done for him, even being first on scene, I still feel felt empty about it because... idk, just because.
I responded to an MVA last week where a kid hit some above ground fuel tanks and they exploded burning him alive in the car. Even though I know in my head 100% that there was nothing I PERSONALLY could have done for him, even being first on scene, I still feel felt empty about it because... idk, just because.
There was nothing you could do from the sound of it. Everything pointed to no one being home. I would have done exactly the same thing.
rwo978 said:
From the way you described it, there was absolutely nothing to indicate anyone was home. No tracks in the snow, both vehicles had been there for a while, uncollcected mail, no response to numerous attempts to get someone's attention, I wouldn't have expected you to risk your life for what appeared to be an empty building. I'm guessing, but she was probably already overcome by smoke when you first showed up. Outcome would probably have been the same regardless.
As for CISD, do it ASAP. I had a call in 2008 for a 10 year old kid who drowned while fishing. The guys from the rescue squad, the township cops, and I all swam in the estuary for a good 25 minutes until we found his body in about 8 feet of water. He'd been under for at least 13 minutes before I got there. Middle of summer, 70 degree water, no chance in hell he'd survive being under that long. It took three weeks for them to schedule a meet with the CISD guys from the area. I really wish I'd gone and talked to someone sooner, even on my own dime. Maybe it's cause he was a kid instead of an adult, but it's still fucks with me 2 years later to think about it. Don't try to tough it out by yourself. Talking about it, repeatedly, kinda innoculates you to it so the pain is lessened and you can cope without having the dreams, etc.
Yes, there are certainly calls that I have run where I think things could have turned out better. You did your job based upon your training and experience and you made the decision that most people probably would. I'm sure that almost every other firefighter on that scene would have come to the same conclusion. Lets face it, if you collapsed walking back to the truck, imagine what would have happened if you started an interior search. It is human nature to be upset and wonder if you could have done something more.
Sometimes, even when you do everything right, bad things happen.
Sometimes, even when you do everything right, bad things happen.
I agree that all indications pointed to the house being unoccupied. I'm not going to armchair quarterback your fire ground decision because every call is different, but I think you did nothing wrong in your size-up, nor how you directed resources.
Could you have done a primary? Maybe. But, I wasn't there, I don't know the conditions, I don't know what resources you had to work with. Talk it out, don't let it eat you up because it sounds like you did what was right for the situation.
Could you have done a primary? Maybe. But, I wasn't there, I don't know the conditions, I don't know what resources you had to work with. Talk it out, don't let it eat you up because it sounds like you did what was right for the situation.
+1 on mcpd's post. If you would have collapsed on the second floor during your search, which was a real possibility from all accounts, they might have needed two body bags instead of one. You did everything possible with the info you had. Speak to someone and get counseling pronto and don't keep your feelings bottled up. Stress is unhealthy and can be a silent killer.
Talk about it as often as possible during a CISD. Bottling up inside will do you more harm then good. Sounds like you did the best job possible with what you had available at the time and sized it up well according to all indications.
My department does not have CISD available to us. However, after a good nights sleep, er.... days sleep :lol: I fell a LOT better about it. I think I was just dealing with the intial shock at first, but I've accepted the fact that it's part of human nautre for stuff like this to happen and you can't win them all. I did my best and that's all that matters. Thanks for all the responses though. If anything, this was my CISD. So what are your stories? Ben, I read about yours in the nightowls thread.
Glad to hear you aren't beating yourself up over it.
What is the deal in the news story about the 2nd story window being open as a sign "someone was trying to get out"? Looks to me like all the windows were bashed open for ventilation.
What is the deal in the news story about the 2nd story window being open as a sign "someone was trying to get out"? Looks to me like all the windows were bashed open for ventilation.
In this world controlled by lawyers we've come to expect that if something doesn't turn out perfectly, SOMEONE must be to BLAME. That's not always true. Sometimes you do your best and everyone else does also, and things don't work out like in the storybook. Anyone in emergency services can tell stories of things that just turned out badly even when people did their best. If the victim is a child or some helpless elderly person that just adds to the guilt but it doesn't mean someone's at fault. If everyone on scene agrees that protocols were followed, then there's no blame to be laid. Part of the job is to be able to put it behind you and go on. And part of the job is to be able to forgive yourself for something that wasn't in your power to control, anyway.
ISU_Cyclone said:
Just bad reporting. Especially since they show the "open window" being the window to the stoarge room. She was found on complete opposite side of the house. There definitely weren't any open windows when I got there. News crews started showing up about half way through the call.
Not to be a dick, but you may not want to have the initial post up right now, esp if you think the family may try to file some sort of legal action (people are nutty now a days).
Dave, in my years I'm wiling to bet that mostlikely she was already gone before anyone would have had a chance to make a difference. Everyone has or will be there at one time or another, I'm just glad you're OK and you added a little more information to the brain bank.
It looks to me like the Chief gave you an order and you disregarded it. That's what I would worry about first, especially if the "press" finds this quote.
CISD is usually offered to us after any significant death on an alarm (out of the ordinary/SAR's calls involving pediatrics/member deaths etc)or at the request of any member at any time. I feel that is unacceptable to not have that resource readily available in any public safety agency. Especially here in CT they are wonderful on our side of the state and I am quite shocked that your agency doesnt offer the resource thats something to push for.
As for your concerns everything has pretty much been covered already. It's a good thing your feeling better about the situation and we are all human beings whether we like them or want them our emotions are always present. You thought on your feet based off your training and street skills like any good firefighter has constantly do. You made a decision and it is over and done with. I dont think anyone here can say they haven't ever fealt like there is something in their careers whether it be a decision, action, lack of action..anything that they could have done better or if they went back would have done differently. You learn from it, you build off of it and you do the hell out of it next time around. All the signs pointed to an unoccupied dwelling, but this was just one of those curve balls that comes around every now and then. Happens to everyone eventually and unfortunately this was one of them. Its human nature to second guess your actions especially after a fatal. Don't ever let anyone monday morning quater-back your decisions, especially when that person is yourself. Who knows how many people you have already made a difference for and unfortunately its something we all will never really know in our careers. All we know is there are still plenty more to come and you did everything you could possibly do. Doesnt make you any less of a Firefighter or a person.
All that matters is your feeling better, FireEMSPolice has it right dont keep it inside if CISD isnt offered than just talk with anyone you feel comfortable with I think most of us here are more than happy to chat. You have already said yourself that you over did it on scene. Just take care of yourself bud and dont overwork yourself even though sometimes its easy to lose sight of it. If you need anything give a hollar.
As for your concerns everything has pretty much been covered already. It's a good thing your feeling better about the situation and we are all human beings whether we like them or want them our emotions are always present. You thought on your feet based off your training and street skills like any good firefighter has constantly do. You made a decision and it is over and done with. I dont think anyone here can say they haven't ever fealt like there is something in their careers whether it be a decision, action, lack of action..anything that they could have done better or if they went back would have done differently. You learn from it, you build off of it and you do the hell out of it next time around. All the signs pointed to an unoccupied dwelling, but this was just one of those curve balls that comes around every now and then. Happens to everyone eventually and unfortunately this was one of them. Its human nature to second guess your actions especially after a fatal. Don't ever let anyone monday morning quater-back your decisions, especially when that person is yourself. Who knows how many people you have already made a difference for and unfortunately its something we all will never really know in our careers. All we know is there are still plenty more to come and you did everything you could possibly do. Doesnt make you any less of a Firefighter or a person.
All that matters is your feeling better, FireEMSPolice has it right dont keep it inside if CISD isnt offered than just talk with anyone you feel comfortable with I think most of us here are more than happy to chat. You have already said yourself that you over did it on scene. Just take care of yourself bud and dont overwork yourself even though sometimes its easy to lose sight of it. If you need anything give a hollar.
ems60 said:
Where does he say anywhere that he disregarded orders from his Chief? He gave his chief a scene size-up, waited for trucks to arrived and jumped in with the game plan that the chief set up while he was en route. He said the Chief ASKED him to do a 2nd floor search. I can bet that this isn't Dave's first rodeo, and if he's on the interior and thinks that whatever he did was what should have been done, his chief trusted his opinion. Obviously if the chief didn't trust his opinion, he wouldn't have allowed the other guys to bring him the tools he asked for to do the tear down. Also if his chief were to see this for some reason, it's not like he doesn't already know what happened. And if the media is browsing around and finds it, radio traffic is available online and they could have heard it for themselves over the radio right when it happened.
RL1 said:
I'm going to agree with this one. Even though we register, it is still an open forum and you don't know who is trolling around.
ben, try reading the post again the chief told him to perform a second floor search and he said no. where I come from a superior asking you to do something is the same as an order. You don't have to say pretty please.
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DaveCN5 said:
I think that's what he is referencing. I'm assuming that because he was in the building, he felt that checking for and preventing extension through the ceiling and walls was more of a vital task to accomplish than a second floor search of a home he believed to be vacant.
ems60 said:
Your not helping bro.
my .2
Dont worry about it i would of done the exact same thing you did also.
ems60,
How about you stfu unless you know what you're talking about. I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth that make it look like I did something negligently or disobeyed a direct order. I have NEVER disobeyed a direct order from a superior officer. Especially from our Chief. He would have no problem kicking me off of a scene and having me turn in my gear right then and there with a letter of Termination to follow as soon as he got back to our station. Like I said, my crew was ASKED if we wanted to perform a search of the second floor. Since my crew had just knocked down a large body of fire with tons of combustables nearby (the lady was a hoarder), the chief was informed that there was a good chance of fire extension into the ceiling and walls. The Chief made the decision to send the second truck company (that was standing by at the front door) upstairs to perform the search and keep my crew down stairs and starting overhaul.
Thanks to Ben, Mark, and Station 3 for your support. It's appreciated.
How about you stfu unless you know what you're talking about. I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth that make it look like I did something negligently or disobeyed a direct order. I have NEVER disobeyed a direct order from a superior officer. Especially from our Chief. He would have no problem kicking me off of a scene and having me turn in my gear right then and there with a letter of Termination to follow as soon as he got back to our station. Like I said, my crew was ASKED if we wanted to perform a search of the second floor. Since my crew had just knocked down a large body of fire with tons of combustables nearby (the lady was a hoarder), the chief was informed that there was a good chance of fire extension into the ceiling and walls. The Chief made the decision to send the second truck company (that was standing by at the front door) upstairs to perform the search and keep my crew down stairs and starting overhaul.
Thanks to Ben, Mark, and Station 3 for your support. It's appreciated.
Since I don't feel like dealing with people putting words in my mouth and trying to make me look like a bad guy, I am locking this.