This is something that doesn't happen everyday. But it happened so lets not make this a FF/LEO thing, but we all could learn from it.Departments at odds after cop pulls gun on firefighter during traffic stop
Dean's (Firefighter) speed wasn't clocked by radar. Clark estimates it exceeded posted limits by 15 to 35 mph and possibly reached 90 mph.
"I feel that you not only compromised your own safety, but you also put the safety of the public and other responding police officers in harm's way," Clark wrote.
The video also captures Gilbertson's (Cop) speed, which reached 101 mph early on as he initiated the pursuit and tried to catch up with Dean (Firefighter).
jrfive0 said:Dean should have been arrested, and would have been in NJ.
jrfive0 said:Dean should have been arrested, and would have been in NJ.
Why do people always put states that are not involve with the videos? Different state different rules. Nobody cares what would happen in your state. I dont know the laws regarding povs in this state though.jrfive0 said:Dean should have been arrested, and would have been in NJ.
theroofable said:I am curious as to why this officer didnt know there was a call going out. However I can understand if its in a different town or department, but has he never seen a pov before? He turned into the EMS building + EMS plate + red light = wtf are you doing? Car is also not a challenger as he stated. As I see it he should have let him go, and the gun was unnecessary. Also, if the state says he is an emergency vehicle, he does not have to yield to the cop.
Why do people always put states that are not involve with the videos? Different state different rules. Nobody cares what would happen in your state. I dont know the laws regarding povs in this state though.
EVT said:I think this is going to play a major role in the investigation:
Clark's written report faults the firefighter for acting without "due regard" for public safety. The call went out as an "Alpha-level" page for an "odor investigation."
According to Dane County policy, Alpha-level calls are non-emergencies and should be answered with "no lights, no siren (and) normal driving conditions," Clark wrote.
ISU_Cyclone said:In the video he says "Delta". Also, I believe it stated the ultimate discretion is left up to the individual responders.
Is that for the trucks only or pov as well. It could take a large amount of time if you had to wait for 5 guys coming 10-15mns to the station when not running code. Just sayin, not familiar with any of this alpha page stuff. Care to expand further on the levels?EVT said:I think this is going to play a major role in the investigation:
Clark's written report faults the firefighter for acting without "due regard" for public safety. The call went out as an "Alpha-level" page for an "odor investigation."
According to Dane County policy, Alpha-level calls are non-emergencies and should be answered with "no lights, no siren (and) normal driving conditions," Clark wrote.
EVT said:I think this is going to play a major role in the investigation:
Clark's written report faults the firefighter for acting without "due regard" for public safety. The call went out as an "Alpha-level" page for an "odor investigation."
According to Dane County policy, Alpha-level calls are non-emergencies and should be answered with "no lights, no siren (and) normal driving conditions," Clark wrote.
fireman658 said:In which 6 of the 8 individuals responded code in their pov's. I guess he better go after the whole department. Lol. I think the cop was very unjustified. I understand the concern due to an imposter from earlier in the day, but as easy as it is for the officer to run a plateand hit the scan button as our officers do this could have easily been avoided. Now it has to be drawn out because the officer is in too deep to retract everything and apologize.
theroofable said:Is that for the trucks only or pov as well. It could take a large amount of time if you had to wait for 5 guys coming 10-15mns to the station when not running code. Just sayin, not familiar with any of this alpha page stuff. Care to expand further on the levels?
GTRider245 said:So because most of the guys who responded also did the same thing that makes it right?
His speed was never clocked. The cop never even got that close behind him, always kept distance. If you want to pull someone over, shouldnt you get just a tad closer? Yes, what do the SOP/SOGs state? :bonk:GTRider245 said:As it should.
So because most of the guys who responded also did the same thing that makes it right?
I didn't see a whole lot of traffic in the video. Looks like a mostly rural area. I doubt running normal traffic would have made much of a difference, other than it wouldn't have let him think he could run 90MPH, which he shouldn't have done either way.
theroofable said:His speed was never clocked. The cop never even got that close behind him, always kept distance. If you want to pull someone over, shouldnt you get just a tad closer? Yes, what do the SOP/SOGs state? :bonk:
GTRider245 said:What would have had him do? Get on the dude's bumper running 70 AFTER having to run 100 for a full minute to even get close to him? Maybe tap the rear corner panel at the first stop sign?
He ran emergent to an odor investigation. What police agency goes to odor investigations? This is a serious question. Fire departments here do not run emergent to these type calls nor does law enforcement even respond. Regional difference maybe? This should have been a red flag to the whole "responding to the same call" thing.
It would literally have taken a minute at most to pull over, let the officer know who he was and what was going on, and go from there.
chief1565 said:So now you are saying that all the agencies in GA do non run emergencies to this type of call.
Are you the offical rep. for all the agencies?
Do you know what their Sop/Sogs are for this responce?
Highly dought that you are.
Maybe his Sop mandates in runs that you don't know.
You came here to learn some different ideas I'm quessing, but you you are not open to what experienced members are saying you are one sided in your think everything should come from a book or what the company has written down.
My guess is if you get on a scene you'll pull the book out and use it to decide what to do.
GTRider245 said:What would have had him do? Get on the dude's bumper running 70 AFTER having to run 100 for a full minute to even get close to him? Maybe tap the rear corner panel at the first stop sign?
He ran emergent to an odor investigation. What police agency goes to odor investigations? This is a serious question. Fire departments here do not run emergent to these type calls nor does law enforcement even respond. Regional difference maybe? This should have been a red flag to the whole "responding to the same call" thing.
It would literally have taken a minute at most to pull over, let the officer know who he was and what was going on, and go from there.
GTRider245 said:. What police agency goes to odor investigations? This is a serious question. Fire departments here do not run emergent to these type calls nor does law enforcement even respond. Regional difference maybe? This should have been a red flag to the whole "responding to the same call" thing.
It would literally have taken a minute at most to pull over, let the officer know who he was and what was going on, and go from there.
CPDG23 said:So the firefighter was estimated to go as fast as 90mph and is a threat to both the public and other responding officers while the police officer was on video doing 101mph and is a hero in his departments eyes?
Nice double standard there Clark, I am sure your internal investigation went without any biases. :weird:
Mike L. said:That is no double standard. Police Officers are given certain privelages to perform our job. When I was a cop I was allowed to exceed the speed limit to catch a violator.
Mike L. said:Where does it say a firefighter driving a POV priority needs to be doing 90mph? Why would a fire fighter even be doing that?
Mike L. said:Police are trained for high speed driving, firefighters are not.
Mike L. said:This fire fighter was in the wrong and he knows it.
Mike L. said:Driving priority is a privelage not a right.
Mike L. said:He had an obligation to yield to the officer.
Mike L. said:I would have done the same thing as the officer in this situation.
Mike L. said:He doesnt deserve to be a firefighter.
Mike L. said:That is no double standard. Police Officers are given certain privelages to perform our job. When I was a cop I was allowed to exceed the speed limit to catch a violator. Where does it say a firefighter driving a POV priority needs to be doing 90mph? Why would a fire fighter even be doing that? Police are trained for high speed driving, firefighters are not.
This fire fighter was in the wrong and he knows it. Driving priority is a privelage not a right. He had an obligation to yield to the officer. I would have done the same thing as the officer in this situation.
He doesnt deserve to be a firefighter.
347.25 Special warning lamps on vehicles. (1) Except
as provided in subs. (1m) (a), (1r), and (1s), an authorized emergency
vehicle may be equipped with one or more flashing, oscillating,
or rotating red lights, except that ambulances, fire department
equipment, privately owned motor vehicles under s. 340.01
(3) (d), (dg), or (dm) being used by personnel of a full−time or
part−time fire department, by members of a volunteer fire department
or rescue squad, or by an organ procurement organization or
any person under an agreement with an organ procurement organization,
and privately owned motor vehicles under s. 340.01 (3)
(dh) being used to transport or pick up medical devices or equipment,
may be equipped with red or red and white lights, and shall
be so equipped when the operator thereof is exercising the privileges
granted by s. 346.03. The lights shall be so designed and
mounted as to be plainly visible and understandable from a distance
of 500 feet both during normal sunlight and during hours of
darkness. No operator of an authorized emergency vehicle may
use the warning lights except when responding to an emergency
call or when in pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law,
when responding to but not upon returning from a fire alarm, when
transporting an organ for human transplantation, when transporting
medical personnel for the purpose of performing human organ
harvesting or transplantation immediately after the transportation,
or when necessarily parked in a position which is likely to be hazardous
to traffic.
(3) "Authorized emergency vehicle" means any of the following:
(a) Police vehicles, whether publicly or privately owned, including bicycles being operated by law enforcement officers.
( B) Conservation wardens' vehicles, foresters' trucks, or vehicles used by commission wardens, whether publicly or privately owned.
© Vehicles of a fire department or fire patrol.
(d) Privately owned motor vehicles being used by deputy state fire marshals or by personnel of a full-time or part-time fire department or by members of a volunteer fire department while en route to a fire or on an emergency call pursuant to orders of their chief or other commanding officer.
CPDG23 said:So you were a LEO in the same state that this took place?
No?
I don't think your argument holds much weight then. :nono:
Mike L. said:Police are trained to drive HIGH SPEED. It is called EVOC. Every State trains their police officers to high speed driving. I have never heard of any Fire Dept. training its members to drive faster than 10 over the posted limit. Fire trucks and ambulances can't be driven like police cars. In states that allow POV response, POV's are not designed for the type of driving the police do.
Second, the law states that you yield to law enforcement. Yes, I understand there may have been a communication issue. However, that doesn't change the fact that the FF still should have yielded. The officer was investigating a bonafide criminal complaint against the FF. Pulling over, flashing his dept ID and explaining the call he was going to would have prevented all of this.
He doesn't deserve to be a fire fighter and he should have been arrested. He committed a crime by failing to yield (obstruction) and put his fellow firefighters and the public in jeopardy. This sounds like a case of an over eager ff to me.
You all can think what you want but the point stands that it was the firefighters actions and his actions alone that created this situation. Had he simply stopped none of this would have happened, and it would have taken a minute at most for the officer to confirm his identity and that he was legit. How long was the response delayed because of the felony stop.
I understand loyalty to a brother firefighter, but sometimes one has to look at the ENTIRE picture.