Duty To Act? Negligence?

[Zapp Brannigan]

Dashcam Video Shows Uniformed Officer Standing by as Off-Duty Officer Begs for Help Trying to Resuscitate Crash Victims | TheBlaze.com

A Florida police officer is under fire for failing to help dying car crash victims — and it was all caught on tape by a dashboard camera.

Is there a duty to act as someone who is not primarily a medical responder? Are the officers even CPR trained? If not should they be?


This thread is not intended to be a dig at the officer, or any officers, I really want to see opinions of the situation present. Please keep this a civil, intellectual discussion!

 

[mm2k5]

wow


I think she should get more than "a week off with no pay"...

 

[mm2k5]

Is there a duty to act as someone who is not primarily a medical responder? Are the officers even CPR trained? If not should they be?

And I think ALL responders should know at least the very basic - CPR. Right now with them pushing for "hands only" maybe some will be more willing to help, even if they aren't medically trained.

 

[FSEP]

wow

I think she should get more than "a week off with no pay"...

-She was on scene for less then 2 minutes before EMS got on scene


-Within those two minutes she started crowed control, completed a basic patient assessment, spoke to another unit on scene (assuming that part), notified dispatch and went to go get gloves to begin checking for vitals/whatever.


-This was a pedestrian vs. car MVC with an unconscious male, laying on his stomach, heavy bleeding with likely spinal and head injuries.


-At most, should would of only be able to do CPR. I would not be surprised if EMS declared him DOA on scene. Neither article mentioned if either patient was transported, what the corner report was or what the two patients injuries were.....


Besides all that, is thats Nics unit with the rocker panel?

 

[Carlos SpicyWeiner]

no u cant tell those are craptastic strip lights?


I don't see the big deal here. Two officers on scene, can't have both face down and one not providing for scene safety, radio communications, etc.


Not all leos will perform medical stuff.

 

[CPDG23]

Meh....


I would question performing CPR to a trauma patient. Any medics want to chime in on this?


I don't know her level of training so trying to second guess her actions is pointless.

 

[minig0d]

A duty to act is exactly s it sounds... to ACT... it doesn't mean you have to do CPR or anything specific... it means you take action... call 911.. keep bystanders out of the way... etc...

 

[timlinson]

Meh....

I would question performing CPR to a trauma patient. Any medics want to chime in on this?


I don't know her level of training so trying to second guess her actions is pointless.

I don't know FL standards but in ND you get first responder training in the academy.


Also, if they aren't breathing, do CPR, unless they have injuries impossible to survive (decapitation, etc..)

 

[Carlos SpicyWeiner]

you get cpr training.. but scene security is paramount. Does no good if someone else ends up a victim.

 

[mm2k5]

-She was on scene for less then 2 minutes before EMS got on scene
-Within those two minutes she started crowed control, completed a basic patient assessment, spoke to another unit on scene (assuming that part), notified dispatch and went to go get gloves to begin checking for vitals/whatever.


-This was a pedestrian vs. car MVC with an unconscious male, laying on his stomach, heavy bleeding with likely spinal and head injuries.


-At most, should would of only be able to do CPR. I would not be surprised if EMS declared him DOA on scene. Neither article mentioned if either patient was transported, what the corner report was or what the two patients injuries were.....

- If CPR could have helped, two minutes was valuable time lost.


- The video states that the off duty officer said the patient was not breathing and didn't have a pulse


- The articles really didn't say what the injuries actually were.


The media is always going to leave out details to make a "better" story. That may be the case here I don't know. Also, I would like to think the off-duty officer already completed a scene size up and set up a triage. If the male patient was bad enough for "no hope" surely he wouldn't have been begging for help. Time will tell once more factual information is released.

 

[Carlos SpicyWeiner]

The male officer seems a bit emotional. I doubt he really did any sort of scene assessment.

 

[mcpd2025]

Wow... way to throw her under the bus there sergeant. That was NOT the proper way to handle legitimate concerns.


In the future, perhaps we shouldconsider some things and speak with the officer before we slander heron television.


Do we know her level of medicaltraining? What are her department policies on CPR for traumavictims? Did she have necessary PPE such as gloves and a mask? Thearticle made mention of scared to perform CPR because of spinalissues. Is it possible that her training is so poor that she didn'trealize that its an acceptable risk to move a trauma patient toperform CPR (in other words, better paralyzed and alive then deadwithout exacerbating spinal issues)


What was the extent of the man'sinjuries? Is it possible that he had obvious injuries that wereinconsistent with life? I've had bystanders yell at me for notperforming CPR on a motorcyclist that was missing half his head. ATaurus had turned left in front of him. He hit the hoot, flew overthe car and landed facefirst (open face helmet) into a curb at about50-60 mph. I couldn't even find his mouth or nose to perform CPR ifI thought there was a chance it could help. To the bystander whodoesn't see what I see, it could have looked like I wasn't doinganything. The reality was that this guy was dead, beyond repair...


What was the scene like? Was shewatching the striking driver to make sure he didn't flee? Was shewatching oncoming traffic to make sure that they didn't get run overtoo?


Personally, I would have liked to seeher at least attempt CPR or assist the OD sergeant with his victim. Without knowing more about the situation, I don't really feelqualified to judge her or comment upon her potential punishment.


Playing devil's advocate here, dopolice have a DUTY to perform first aid? I know that as adoctor/nurse/EMT etc there is a DUTY to perform. I honestly don'tknow if a police officer has a legal responsibility to do anythingother than to summon aid.

 

[Travelin Man]

To prove negligence, you must have:


1. A duty to act.


2. A failure to act.


3. Injuries or death as a result of a failure to act.


Did she have a duty to act? That's a complicated answer without knowing both the state laws and departmental policy. If there wasn't a duty to act, then there can't be a failure to do so. Futhermore, even if she didn't act but WAS required to do so, there's a good chance that an autopsy would reveal that the patient died as a result of the traffic crash, not the failure of the application of CPR, so you'd still lack the three required elements of negligence.


I'm not quite sure what would have possessed the off-duty office to begin CPR in the first place. Anyone with any amount of time on the job understands that there's a <1% chance of ROSC in a traumatic arrest, so why did he even begin CPR in the first place?


This is a case where it's easy to let emotions get in the way of facts.

 

[Travelin Man]

Playing devil's advocate here, dopolice have a DUTY to perform first aid? I know that as adoctor/nurse/EMT etc there is a DUTY to perform. I honestly don'tknow if a police officer has a legal responsibility to do anythingother than to summon aid.

Off duty physicians, nurses, and EMS providers are bound by law to act in Maryland? I've never heard this from the great number of Maryland fire/EMS folks that I know.


EDIT: I re-read your post, and think I might have misunderstood what you meant. Generally physicians and nurses do not have an obligation to act outside of the hospital setting, but on-duty EMS providers do.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

As for the issue of being scared to perform CPR due to spinal issues...


Well, spinal issues are a secondary concern. Sure, there is the possibility of permanent paralysis, or possibly death, but when someone is in cardiac or respiratory arrest to begin with, well, that is an immediate life threat, and not doing anything about it just about guarantees death!

 

[twodogs603]

Let me throw another far out monkey wrench in. And I know this is far fetched, but:


Suppose she knew the victim, and she knew he had a communicable disease, but she didnt have any PPE, and he is covered in body fluids. Is there a duty to act then?

 

[tvsjr]

I would question performing CPR to a trauma patient. Any medics want to chime in on this?

If the patient needs CPR (i.e. no pulse, no breathing... a/k/a dead) then performing CPR on that patient is strongly recommended. You can't make the patient any more dead... if you happen to make him/her more alive, then you've made progress.

 

[mcpd2025]

Off duty physicians, nurses, and EMS providers are bound by law to act in Maryland? I've never heard this from the great number of Maryland fire/EMS folks that I know.

EDIT: I re-read your post, and think I might have misunderstood what you meant. Generally physicians and nurses do not have an obligation to act outside of the hospital setting, but on-duty EMS providers do.

The way I wrote it was poorly written. I meant what you said.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

If the patient needs CPR (i.e. no pulse, no breathing... a/k/a dead) then performing CPR on that patient is strongly recommended. You can't make the patient any more dead... if you happen to make him/her more alive, then you've made progress.

:iagree: :iagree: :goodpost: :goodpost:


Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[GPC]

My initial reaction after seeing the story was that she should of helped or done something. As it looked like she wasn't really doing anything.


After reading this thread, and looking at the story some more it's kind of hard to make a call on what actually happened. If it was really only 2 minuets before EMS showed up she could have burnt that time up by simply giving the sergeant gloves, telling the people to get back, and finding the car that caused the accident.

 

[mcpd2025]

As for the issue of being scared to perform CPR due to spinal issues...

Well, spinal issues are a secondary concern. Sure, there is the possibility of permanent paralysis, or possibly death, but when someone is in cardiac or respiratory arrest to begin with, well, that is an immediate life threat, and not doing anything about it just about guarantees death!

Exactly. That is obvious to someonewith appropriate training.


To someone who doesn't know, it can beconfusing. You always see and hear that you don't want to movesomeone who may have spinal trauma. If you don't have correcttraining or experience, its an easy mistake to make in the heat ofthe moment.


We don't know how she was trained tohandle those situations.

 

[Doug]

Anyone with any amount of time on the job understands that there's a <1% chance of ROSC in a traumatic arrest, so why did he even begin CPR in the first place?

Are you advocating no CPR for trauma arrests? As you said, there is a very high mortality rate - the code isn't because of a medical condition (usually), but more because the body can't cope with the injuries. Of course, the patient doesn't need ALS/ALTS so much as they need a trauma surgeon and an OR ASAP.

 

[Carlos SpicyWeiner]

In Florida you are taught to treat everyone as though they have a communicable disease. Large amounts of blood usually means im not touching or getting near it. Gloves only cover so much.


Sit back, secure the scene, transmit vital information of the radio and keep eyes on the suspect. Two officers on scene face first in people that are going to die creates an officer safety issue with an obvious suspect sitting there. EMS and Fire may not have the same level of worry about being attacked with your back to everyone... but police do.


She obviously didnt articulate a proper thought process. That's probably going to be the biggest reason she receives punishment.

 

[CPDG23]

If the patient needs CPR (i.e. no pulse, no breathing... a/k/a dead) then performing CPR on that patient is strongly recommended. You can't make the patient any more dead... if you happen to make him/her more alive, then you've made progress.

And that is where my concern lies... Say you move the patient, perform CPR, patient lives but paralyzed from the neck down...


Who do you think is going to be in the cross hairs of the lawyers?

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

And that is where my concern lies... Say you move the patient, perform CPR, patient lives but paralyzed from the neck down...

Who do you think is going to be in the cross hairs of the lawyers?

I would rather take that chance, than have any lawyer chew me up in court for not aiding while they were in cardiac arrest. If the LEO was trained in CPR, and failed to perform it, that, in my opinion is negligence. I cannot speak about ever single LEO, but isn't it pretty much all of them are at minimum CPR trained SINCE they arrive on scene first many times due to being in a mobile office?

 

[FSEP]

Sit back, secure the scene, transmit vital information of the radio and keep eyes on the suspect. Two officers on scene face first in people that are going to die creates an officer safety issue with an obvious suspect sitting there. EMS and Fire may not have the same level of worry about being attacked with your back to everyone... but police do.

This. This on so many levels.


Story time:


I was on scene (as a firefighter) of a 3 car MVC w/ entrapment. At least 8 PTs, several being priority 4. While assisting with extrication, I noticed a guy walk by to me and all over the scene. This "random guy" just so happened to be the prisoner I transported to prison a week prior. During our little trip to the adult daycare, he said "when I get out I'm going to find you and smash your skull into the ground until your dead". This switched me from firefighter to cop realllll quick. To say the least, the halligan in my hand was ready to be used for more then prying some metal...


The point of this? Officer safety. If I feel like someone or something is threatening me harm, that becomes my main priority. Everything else is secondary.

 

[Travelin Man]

Are you advocating no CPR for trauma arrests? As you said, there is a very high mortality rate - the code isn't because of a medical condition (usually), but more because the body can't cope with the injuries. Of course, the patient doesn't need ALS/ALTS so much as they need a trauma surgeon and an OR ASAP.

In 20 years, I've never initiated CPR on a trauma arrest, nor do I plan on doing so in the next 20 years. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a jaded ol' EMS guy who dismisses the validity of CPR and early defibrillation in sudden cardiac arrest (hell, I've had three ROSC cases in the past five months), but there's little scientific evidence to prove the worth of CPR in a traumatic arrest, much less the quality of life for the patient in the 0.5% of patients who may have ROSC.

 

[CPDG23]

I would rather take that chance, than have any lawyer chew me up in court for not aiding while they were in cardiac arrest.

You have to be careful with that attitude. Assuming you have a family, that bravado decision you just made could negatively affect their lives for years to come.


I would caution anyone with limited/no EMS training attempting to be a good samaritan in this day and age... Try something above your scope of training, screw up, and you will be put in the poor house, that's almost a guarantee.


Before someone brings up "Good Samaritan Protection Laws" take a minute to read this story...


Woman Sued for Rescue Effort in Car Crash - ABC News

Such was the case with Lisa Torti, who is being sued for pulling a now-paralyzed friend from the wreckage of a Los Angeles car accident in 2004.

The victim's lawyers claim the Good Samaritan bumbled the rescue and caused injury by yanking her friend "like a rag doll" to safety.


The California Supreme Court ruled this week that Van Horn may sue Torti for allegedly causing her friend's paralysis. The case -- the first of its kind -- challenges the state's liability shield law that protects people who give emergency assistance.

You had better know what you're up against before making the decision to get involved.

 

[unlisted]

And that is where my concern lies... Say you move the patient, perform CPR, patient lives but paralyzed from the neck down...

Who do you think is going to be in the cross hairs of the lawyers?

In the past 20 years of doing annual first aid/first responder training, we have always been told the following:


Scene safety first.


ABC's and life over limb. I don't care if someone may or may not have a spinal, if I cannot do a proper ABC check, I am flipping them over as safety as I can.


The officer at question here does seem to hesitate, however I am not going to armchair quarterback too much. I think her reasoning for not assisting was a bit silly (could not assess, pt was face down).. However if the other officer asked for assistance, she should of tried to help in some way, or clearly stated why she would not. She also could of been concerned with scene safety.. Maybe she just froze..? I've seen many persons get to an incident scene and lock up, including persons with 20 plus years. All depends on the situation at hand.

 

[tvsjr]

I would rather take that chance, than have any lawyer chew me up in court for not aiding while they were in cardiac arrest. If the LEO was trained in CPR, and failed to perform it, that, in my opinion is negligence. I cannot speak about ever single LEO, but isn't it pretty much all of them are at minimum CPR trained SINCE they arrive on scene first many times due to being in a mobile office?

And on a personal level, I'd rather take that chance than let someone lay there and die, knowing that I might have been able to do something to save that person.


It's a pretty farked up world when fire/EMS providers, on or off duty, would rather let someone lay there in a pile rather than doing what they can to treat the patient.

 

[CPDG23]

And on a personal level, I'd rather take that chance than let someone lay there and die, knowing that I might have been able to do something to save that person.

It's a pretty farked up world when fire/EMS providers, on or off duty, would rather let someone lay there in a pile rather than doing what they can to treat the patient.

Its a farked up world when you can get sued for trying to save someone's life, but like it or not these are the times we live in and I have a family to protect.


YMMV.

 

[bluestinger90]

This. This on so many levels.

Story time:


I was on scene (as a firefighter) of a 3 car MVC w/ entrapment. At least 8 PTs, several being priority 4. While assisting with extrication, I noticed a guy walk by to me and all over the scene. This "random guy" just so happened to be the prisoner I transported to prison a week prior. During our little trip to the adult daycare, he said "when I get out I'm going to find you and smash your skull into the ground until your dead". This switched me from firefighter to cop realllll quick. To say the least, the halligan in my hand was ready to be used for more then prying some metal...


The point of this? Officer safety. If I feel like someone or something is threatening me harm, that becomes my main priority. Everything else is secondary.

Did this person get charged with uttering threats? Or did you use that halligan and make it 9 pts?

 

[Hoff]

Part of the problem is that Joe (low information/television educated) Somebody thinks that the police can and should do everything. The other problem is the sue happy nature of our society now days. That officer was screwed from the get go. I'm also disturbed by the amount of cop haters that comment on the original article. These people are easily stirred up into a frenzy to hate on that they do not fully understand. :hopeless:

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

I am glad this thread has gone as it has. No personal opinions hurt, some good points, opinions, facts, and past cases have come up.


Please, keep the discussion going!

 

[Turd Ferguson]

If you reference my crash bag thread, the resounding answer was "stick to your level of training." If this officer was not trained in advanced technique, then she simply did just that. Thanks to lawyers, even professionals hesitate to act sometimes, and with self preservation in mind, makes it a difficult call in my book.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Thanks to lawyers, even professionals hesitate to act sometimes, and with self preservation in mind, makes it a difficult call in my book.

Lawyers are in fact ruining this Country!!

 

[Doug]

Lawyers are in fact ruining this Country!!

View attachment 69143

True only in part. People see suing as a solution for every problem.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

True only in part. People see suing as a solution for every problem.

Yup. I was told many years ago, al lit takes to sue someone, is a pen.


Nowadays, just a computer to go online and do it.

 

[Kbonk15]

You can't kill someone who's already dead. So why not at least try CPR. The off duty Leo made a pretty decent safety zone with his car. And I would of put patient care ahead of crowd control. Also I find it hard to believe she only had one pair of gloves in her entire vehicle. Leo's around here are first aid, cpr, and O2 trained and carry all of that along with a full box of gloves in there patrol cars. Over all I think that all Leo's should be at least first aid / cpr trained and shouldn't be afraid to use it.

 

[timlinson]

You can't kill someone who's already dead. So why not at least try CPR. The off duty Leo made a pretty decent safety zone with his car. And I would of put patient care ahead of crowd control. Also I find it hard to believe she only had one pair of gloves in her entire vehicle. Leo's around here are first aid, cpr, and O2 trained and carry all of that along with a full box of gloves in there patrol cars. Over all I think that all Leo's should be at least first aid / cpr trained and shouldn't be afraid to use it.

Our safety is foremost. You don't see us paramedics rushing into every scene and right up to our patient. We take our time, analyze the scene, condition, determine if it's safe. If it's not (such as crowds), we wait until it is to do anything. Your safety is pounded into your head from emergency medical responder all the way up to paramedic.