Federal Jr. Beacon Ray

[Captain4164]

Hi guys,


I am brand new to this site so please help me if Im not in the right place.


I have a Federal Jr Beacon Ray and will be putting it on my restored 1948 Dodge Power Wagon. But I want it to be removable for when Im not doing things related to the fire dept I work for. I understand there was a magnet mount for these lights made at one time. Does anyone have a picture of a magnet mount or know where I can find one? My light currently doenst have a base at all, but I have a lead on one that does. Also my current light is 12v with a 6v bulb, the lead I have on is a 6v everything. So hopefully I can get that and it will rotate faster than the 12v on a 6v system.


Thanks in advance


Nick

 

[dmathieu]

Nick, nice light. It looks great on that truck, even though it's not period correct. The Junior came out in 1958.


I don't know if I'd trust the magnet mount that came with the light originally. I had only 3 Fire Ball type magnets, and is not very strong. I'd add a round plate to the bottom of the light, and put three 90lb magnets on it. This is a fairly heavy light, and one good bump, or quick stop could lead to disaster.


Vintage lights all the way!!


Dan

 

[Captain4164]

Oh, nice to know the date those came out. Its ok though, I'm sure not many others know that, it looks cool!! The way CDF used to do it was with two spot lights mounted on the "A" pillars, the passenger side flashed, the drivers side was solid. But I didn't want to drill holes to mount and wire the lights on the "A" pillars. This light is just too cool and people don't know any better and will think its correct.


Ok, Im gonna do some checkin and see what I can fabricate to mount it. You don't happen to have any pics of how its done do ya?


Thanks for the help


Nick

 

[Captain4164]

This is what they used to do.. two reds to the front and one amber to the rear... But I really like the Jr Beacon Ray better

 

[dmathieu]

I like the Beacon Ray better too.


Cut a round aluminum plate so the base and gasket fit on it, not smaller, not bigger. Drill 3 holes in the base to add the 90lb pull round magnets and bolt them on using the 3 light mounting bolts . Don't mount the magnets so they protrude beyond the base. This will look neater. If your light already has a plate, use that, and neatly glue the gasket to the base so it doesn't come off when you remove the light from the truck.

 

[Captain4164]

Yeah I don't have a base on it, Im watching one now and have a bid on it. It supposedly has a base. But the way you describe it is kinda what I was thinking. But Ill hafta cut the posts down some to accept the magnets..no biggie

 

[dmathieu]

Yeah I don't have a base on it, Im watching one now and have a bid on it. It supposedly has a base. But the way you describe it is kinda what I was thinking. But Ill hafta cut the posts down some to accept the magnets..no biggie

View attachment 30860

Make your own circular base, and I wouldn't cut the posts. The light will ride a little high, (most of the thickness of the magnets), but it won't bee seen from the ground, and will make it easier to remove the light from the roof..


Kust glue the gasket like I said.

 

[Captain4164]

I must not be thinking of the same magnets then, how thick are the ones your talking about?? I was gonna cut the posts so the magnets are even with the edge of the skirt, then put the base over the magnets. With the gasket it would be flat wouldn't it? Are the magnets strong enough to attract the roof thru the base?

 

[Hoser]

Here is a picture of the bottom of my Jr. The magnet setup Dan is talking about would be stronger.

 

[Captain4164]

So those magnets sit up in the base and are even with the bottom of the skirt?? And the screws holding the base on are up off the roof, under the lip of the skirt....


Those look like cabinet door magnets??


That helps a lot, thanks for the pic!!

 

[Hoser]

Very welcome. The magnets are like door hinge type, its all original.

 

[Captain4164]

Ok, I see why they wouldn't be very strong to hold the light in place. I was gonna check Lowe's tomorrow and se if they have anything.


This is what Im thinking:


MAGNET - 90 lb. PULL | eBay

 

[Hoser]

Ok, I see why they wouldn't be very strong to hold the light in place. I was gonna check Lowe's tomorrow and se if they have anything.

This is what Im thinking:


MAGNET - 90 lb. PULL | eBay

Yep that would be the ticket, they have magnets like that at the local Ace hardware here.

 

[dmathieu]

The round 90lb magnets will give plenty of pull, so having the base raised up the thickness of the magnets will be a good thing in this case. You will be able to get your fingers under the light to break the magnetic pull, to remove the light from the roof. If you don't do this, then you will be putting a lot of stress on the dome and base when TRYING to remove the light.


The ideal would be having the light fit flush on the roof, but not if you want strong magnets to prevent disaster.


Weak magnets, flush to roof = flyaway


Strong magnets w/ no finger room (flush to roof) = very difficult removing light.


Also note, due to the thickness of the metal on the roof of that old truck, you may be able to do the job with fewer magnets.


The thicker the metal surface, the greater the magnetic pull.


Dan

 

[Captain4164]

The round 90lb magnets will give plenty of pull, so having the base raised up the thickness of the magnets will be a good thing in this case. You will be able to get your fingers under the light to break the magnetic pull, to remove the light from the roof. If you don't do this, then you will be putting a lot of stress on the dome and base when TRYING to remove the light.

The ideal would be having the light fit flush on the roof, but not if you want strong magnets to prevent disaster.


Weak magnets, flush to roof = flyaway


Strong magnets w/ no finger room (flush to roof) = very difficult removing light.


Also note, due to the thickness of the metal on the roof of that old truck, you may be able to do the job with fewer magnets.


The thicker the metal surface, the greater the magnetic pull.


Dan

Gotcha! The fog is clearing! :haha: :haha: :haha: But still a little, so the base is going to be outside the skirt, and the magnets inside the base, a little inside the skirt. so theres a little gap between the skirt and base, are the magnets strong enough to reach thru the base and garb the roof? Sorry, Im a technical guy, but Im also very visual. Im a firefighter, I hafta see stuff!! Just wondering what is in contact with the roof, the base or the magnets. Sorry to be a pain in the rear

 

[dmathieu]

Nope!


Sent you a PM


This is a different light, but same principle.

 

[Skip Goulet]

Ok, I see why they wouldn't be very strong to hold the light in place. I was gonna check Lowe's tomorrow and se if they have anything.

This is what Im thinking:


MAGNET - 90 lb. PULL | eBay

You're right about thosel ittle magnets not doing to well. If you look to the left (in the picture) of Hoser's Jr., you'll see a small clip. This was intended for slipping over the head of a #10 sheet metal screw that you could put in the roof of your vehicle and was hardly noticeable. The clip would slip over the head of the screw and the slip under the screw's head. That would prevent losing the light at highway speeds. But even that didn't work well all the time. At Ellis Funeral Home here in Midland where I worked as a kid, we had one of those portable juniors mounted on our '58 Chrysler station wagon ambulance. It had a big B&M siren on the rt. fender. We used that light with the little clip and metal screw, and it worked quite well for a while; but after some time, that clip wore out and broke, sending the light sailing! When the Chrysler was replaced by a '59 Ford wagon, they had sense enough to roof mount the light! A few years ago I ended up with a pair of juniors: one red, one blue. Both were 15As, made for roof mounting. I wanted to use the blue one on my POV, so I attached a single 90# magnet to the base of the light and used the cord and plug off an old Trippe "Magna-Vac" light that I had found that the light was a goner. Worked just fine. Dan's right about the light not being vintage to your truck, but when I lived in Lubbock I saw a number of small depts that mounted juniors on old firetrucks that had only had an old siren-light combination fender mounted. The Wolfforth VFD, a small dept. just SW of Lubbock had an old '48 Chevy firetruck that had operated for years with just an old Sterling sirenlight on the fender. And the truck was 6-volt. In the mid-70s they completely re-did the truck, giving it a 12-volt system. They mounted a red junior on the roof, along with a pair of red lollipop lights. And they added a Federal Model 28 down on the extended bumper. I had seen that old truck run prior to the rebuild, and you could barely hear that old Sterling siren. One time after the rebuild my vol. dept. ended up having to back Wolfforth on a major fire. Where we set up, their old truck was sitting right next to us. At one point they left to get more water, and when the driver let loose on that 28, I jumped 6 feet straight up! I was not aware of what they had done to the truck at the time. Sure made a difference.

 

[stansdds]

I believe Mr. Goulet has given some excellent advice and information.


Fed Sig's first magnetic mount lights were the 15 Junior Beacon Ray, 121 Vitalite, FB Fireball, and FB-F Flashball. All of these had the three little magnets and a clip. I guess with the concept of tossing a magnetic light on the roof and running at speed made Fed Sig rethink the design. The second generation of Vitalites, Fireballs, and Flashballs had a large, rectangular magnet that had a very strong pull, much more than the old arrangement.

 

[dmathieu]

6 Volt siren


Vintage Federal Sign and Signal Fire Truck Siren, Model 28, 6 Volt | eBay

 

[Captain4164]

6 Volt siren

Vintage Federal Sign and Signal Fire Truck Siren, Model 28, 6 Volt | eBay

Yeah, Im watching that one and this one....


SIREN vintage Federal enterprises,inc model 'OS3' 6 VOLT | eBay

 

[Captain4164]

I won the 6volt Amber Jr Beacon Ray on ebay, 95 bucks. Cant wait to get it and switch the amber dome for my red dome and see how much better it operates with a 6v motor instead of a 12v. :2thumbs: :celebrate: :dance:

 

[Skip Goulet]

I believe Mr. Goulet has given some excellent advice and information.

Fed Sig's first magnetic mount lights were the 15 Junior Beacon Ray, 121 Vitalite, FB Fireball, and FB-F Flashball. All of these had the three little magnets and a clip. I guess with the concept of tossing a magnetic light on the roof and running at speed made Fed Sig rethink the design. The second generation of Vitalites, Fireballs, and Flashballs had a large, rectangular magnet that had a very strong pull, much more than the old arrangement.

Thanks for the comments, Stan. It would've been nice if Federal and others had gone to the larger magnets much sooner. When Lubbock was hit by the big tornado in May 1970, my REACT group mobilized, and we ended up borrowing an ambulance from an ambulance salesman who lived in Lubbock. He's occaionaly get a vehicle or two in trade and would keep them parked at a shopping ctr. near his house. That night I made it to his place once the wind had quit. He gave me the keys to a nice Olds station wagon ambulance, and followed in an Olds hearse/ambulance combo that had no lights or siren (the wagon was loaded...with a Q on the roof, too). So I let him use my magnetic Vitalite, which worked quite well for him, but sitting on top of that big combination car, the light got destroyed when he went under a tree and a low-hanging branch caught the little Vitalite and sent it sailing. End of Vitalite!


The lights that I've used since with the larger magnets seem to work fine. Haven't lost one yet!

 

[Skip Goulet]

Yeah, Im watching that one and this one....

SIREN vintage Federal enterprises,inc model 'OS3' 6 VOLT | eBay

Ohhh, I really hope that it wasn't you that won tat little "O" siren. It went for over $200, which is absolutely ridiculous. One of my pet peeves about Ebay is how ridiculously high some things go. The Model O siren sold brand new for $30 and to my knowledge never sold for more than that. But like this one, I've seen them go for a lot of money. Well, like a friend of mine said, where's there's demand, there's money. But there needs to be a reasoable limit!

 

[Captain4164]

Ohhh, I really hope that it wasn't you that won tat little "O" siren. It went for over $200, which is absolutely ridiculous. One of my pet peeves about Ebay is how ridiculously high some things go. The Model O siren sold brand new for $30 and to my knowledge never sold for more than that. But like this one, I've seen them go for a lot of money. Well, like a friend of mine said, where's there's demand, there's money. But there needs to be a reasoable limit!

Yeah, the red one?? yup thats me. See my other post on it, "new purchase"

 

[Hoser]

Please keep us posted on your progress with the Power Wagon. Had a 78 Power wagon Snow Commander that the City purchased during the blizzard of 78 ran it well into the late 90s. Liked it so much I bought one in 86 and my youngest son totalled it on an icy bridge his first year driving, but he didnt have a scratch.

 

[Captain4164]

Please keep us posted on your progress with the Power Wagon. Had a 78 Power wagon Snow Commander that the City purchased during the blizzard of 78 ran it well into the late 90s. Liked it so much I bought one in 86 and my youngest son totalled it on an icy bridge his first year driving, but he didnt have a scratch.

Ha, good for him he was in a sturdy truck. My wife asked why i don't have or wanna put seat belts in the Power Wagon. I said, with as much steel around me and as thick as that steel is, Im more worried about whats gonna happen to who ever hits me!

 

[Captain4164]

FINALLY got the gasket set for my Jr Beacon Ray from Dcaptain. Now I hope the new Jr I bought gets here soon so I can see what it's gaskets are like. Then I can swap the domes!!

 

[Captain4164]

Well I received the new to me 6v Jr Beacon Ray, with an amber dome. Just took the skirt and dome off and checked it out. The tag on the skirt says 6v. And the motor is definitely smaller and different than the 12v I have. I tested it by just touching wires to the battery terminal. Its WAY duller light wise, so I switched bulbs with the other one. (I had a 6v bulb in the 12v light). WAY brighter. So I looked at the bulbs, different filaments. So Ill use my bulb.


As for the motor....... The 6v motor actually turns the reflector base SLOWER than the 12v on 6v power does! Why is that???? So It looks like.....uuummmm, Dunno whether I wanna use the 12v light with the 6v bulb, switch the tags, so it says 6v but is actually a 12v motor. Or use all of the 6v light......Get my drift??


IM in a quandary :undecided: :undecided: :undecided:


And Dave, this one has a base, with screws already into the posts, so I might just use one 90# magnet in the center like your post above

 

[50theman]

Well I received the new to me 6v Jr Beacon Ray, with an amber dome. Just took the skirt and dome off and checked it out. The tag on the skirt says 6v. And the motor is definitely smaller and different than the 12v I have. I tested it by just touching wires to the battery terminal. Its WAY duller light wise, so I switched bulbs with the other one. (I had a 6v bulb in the 12v light). WAY brighter. So I looked at the bulbs, different filaments. So Ill use my bulb.

As for the motor....... The 6v motor actually turns the reflector base SLOWER than the 12v on 6v power does! Why is that???? So It looks like.....uuummmm, Dunno whether I wanna use the 12v light with the 6v bulb, switch the tags, so it says 6v but is actually a 12v motor. Or use all of the 6v light......Get my drift??


IM in a quandary :undecided: :undecided: :undecided:


And Dave, this one has a base, with screws already into the posts, so I might just use one 90# magnet in the center like your post above

that sounds weird:weird:


my 53 Ford has a 6 volt Model 17. Mine turns a lot faster and is a lot brighter than the 12 volt 17's I have seen on 6 volt vehicles. :undecided:

 

[dmathieu]

The motor looks different because it is probably the older open motor version vs the round newer version that is pictured in the 12 volt light


Try moving the motor away from the drive gear, and checking to see if the cage turns freely. It may be dirty, or bound up with old grease, causing it to turn slowly.


Also check to see if the worm gear is pushed in too close to the drive gear, causing it to bind.


Be very carefol with the fiberous drive gear. they are very easy to damage.


Dan

 

[Captain4164]

The motor looks different because it is probably the older open motor version vs the round newer version that is pictured in the 12 volt light
Try moving the motor away from the drive gear, and checking to see if the cage turns freely. It may be dirty, or bound up with old grease, causing it to turn slowly.


Also check to see if the worm gear is pushed in too close to the drive gear, causing it to bind.


Be very carefol with the fiberous drive gear. they are very easy to damage.


Dan

k:

 

[Skip Goulet]

that sounds weird:weird:

my 53 Ford has a 6 volt Model 17. Mine turns a lot faster and is a lot brighter than the 12 volt 17's I have seen on 6 volt vehicles. :undecided:

If someone pus a 12-volt beacon on a 6-volt vehicle, they're only getting 1/2 the power to the light. Thusly, the light won't be as bright and the beacon will turn very slowly.


For example, an ambulance that operated in Odessa, TX by Chapel of the Roses Funeral Home was a 1955 Ford Sedan-Delivery. It was the last year for 6-volt Fords. Someone put an 8-volt Jeep battery on the truck. For warning equipment it had a pair of red Federal FS3 single faced lights on the front corners: both were 6-volt lights and could be seen quite well. The added 2-volts didn't hurt them. The same applies to the 6-volt Federal PropelloRay light that was mounted on the front center of the hood. That light was quite bright and spun rapidly. However,the siren was a 12-volt Q, and was mounted on the center front of the roof. When power was put to it, it would only get to about half-speed and then suddenly taper off. While Chapel ran that old truck for many years, the problem with the Q actually got them into a wreck. They were coming in from an industrial accident and were only about 10 blocks from the hospital. They were going against a red light and a guy hit them because he didn't hear the siren..or so he said. The siren was working and could be heard at close range. But if the guy had his window up and the AC or radio on, then he probably didn't hear it.

 

[Captain4164]

Ok, took em both apart. Compared em. Doesn't seem like the 6v is any tighter than the 12v. Same clearances, the 6v is clean and well lubed. The shaft with the worm gear on it to turn the rotor seems a little loose inside the motor. But that doesn't seem to mean anything when its running, doesn't move any when its running.


Few pics for those interested

 

[Captain4164]

If someone pus a 12-volt beacon on a 6-volt vehicle, they're only getting 1/2 the power to the light. Thusly, the light won't be as bright and the beacon will turn very slowly.

For example, an ambulance that operated in Odessa, TX by Chapel of the Roses Funeral Home was a 1955 Ford Sedan-Delivery. It was the last year for 6-volt Fords. Someone put an 8-volt Jeep battery on the truck. For warning equipment it had a pair of red Federal FS3 single faced lights on the front corners: both were 6-volt lights and could be seen quite well. The added 2-volts didn't hurt them. The same applies to the 6-volt Federal PropelloRay light that was mounted on the front center of the hood. That light was quite bright and spun rapidly. However,the siren was a 12-volt Q, and was mounted on the center front of the roof. When power was put to it, it would only get to about half-speed and then suddenly taper off. While Chapel ran that old truck for many years, the problem with the Q actually got them into a wreck. They were coming in from an industrial accident and were only about 10 blocks from the hospital. They were going against a red light and a guy hit them because he didn't hear the siren..or so he said. The siren was working and could be heard at close range. But if the guy had his window up and the AC or radio on, then he probably didn't hear it.

But the problem is that the 12v actually turns faster than the 6v??? The brightness isn't an issue, thats the bulbs I have, cuz the one bulb I have is bright in either one, the bulb that came with the 6v is dull in either. The filament is bigger in my bulb, like a brake light, the one that came in the 6v is a tiny filament. Now the motors, 12v spins faster or as fast as the 6v. Shouldn't the 6v spin faster than the 12v on a 6v system??

 

[dmathieu]

Yes it should, unless, somewhere along the life of the beacon, somebody swithed out the motor for a 12 Volt motor. You might actually have a 12 Volt light with a 6 Volt tag.


(Just a note: The older style motors did turn slower than the newer style motors of like voltage)


Here's a clue. What is the # on the bulb that came out of the 6 Volt beacon. If it is a 12 Volt bulb, then someone probably made it into a 12 Volt light, including the motor.


For you electrical wizzards out there, is there a way to step a 12 Volt light down to a 6 Volt system, like you can do the opposite with a 6 Volt light on a 12 Volt system?


Dan

 

[Captain4164]

The first pic on the other post is the 6v motor, like you said, its open, down a few pics is the 12v motor, closed....


Heres the light bulbs.... The one on the left is the one I had, the one on the right is the one that came with the 6v Beacon Ray. You can kinda see the differences in the filaments. No numbers on either bulb...

 

[dmathieu]

A 6 Volt 1183 would be the equivalent of a 1195 on 12 Volt. Both should be 50cp, and both look like the bulb on the right, and will work OK in this light.


The correct 12 Volt bulb for this light is 100cp 1019, and 6 Volt #1015.


Unfortunately the 12 Volt open style, and 6 Volt open style motors looked the same.


I have a 6 Volt Whelen Rota-Beam, and the only thing that had to be done to make it 12 Volt, was change the bulb fron 6 to 12 Volt, and cut out a resistor at the motor. It has a 12 Volt motor in the light.. It makes sence to me that you should be able to take a 12 Volt light, put in the proper 6 Volt bulb, and add a proper resistor to your 12 Volt light motor to make it work. Electrical GURUS, correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[50theman]

Make sure you have it wired right. Remember most 6 volt vehicles are ground positive. They are opposite on 12 volt witch is ground negative. Just a thought, but that can slow the motor some.

 

[Captain4164]

IM gonna wait til it gets dark out and Ill go hook both lights up at the same time and take some video to post on here....wanna try swapping the bulbs at night and see if theres a difference..... i want it to be somewhat correct, so i may use the 6v light and the bright bulb just so that tag says 6v, and then just swap the amber dome for the red..... ill post some video tonite

 

[Skip Goulet]

Nick: Those two bulbs you have aren't the bulbs used in the juniors. Dan's right, they're 50c.p. bulbs, and are common in the Rota-Beams like Dan has, and the double-faced lollipop lights you see around. The juniors used a #1019 bulb, which is 100 c.p. and twice as bright. The 50 c.p. bulbs are adequate, but just not as bright as the 1019s. Years ago we ended up with an old 6-volt Mars DL8 light, the forerunner to the 888s. It had one of those 50 c.p. bulbs in it. This light was going on a 12-volt vehicle and I just happened to have a 1019 bulb out of a Jr. I had traded for that would light up but not rotate. We put that bulb into the Mars light, which was fine, but we had concerns about running that old 6-volt motor on 12. We had tried a resistor, somewhat like Dan describes above, and that didn't work at all; so we just ran it straight off 12-volts. It speed up the oscillation, but in the several years we ran that light, it never hurt that old motor. But with that bigger bulb in place, oooh, was it bright. In the early days of our small volunteer standby ambulance service, we ended up with police escorts every time we ran in. The track owners had misunderstood what they had been told and kept requesting escorts when we'd leave the track. We got that stopped. But one night out of the blue, a Sherif's unit suddenly appeared in front of us as we were heading to the hospital. So we got a high speed escort anyway. Once at the hospital and our patient seen about, I came back out and the deputy was still there. I thanked him for the escort, but asked why he was running so fast, as the situation wasn't that critical. He said that he was just trying to outrun that "wobbly light", and that he'd never seen anything quite so bright!