I have a dept. that wants clear LEDS in the reverse lights of a new brush truck, im pretty sure i have seen some where that this isnt allowed. I cant find it online anywhere, any help would be great! Thanks!
Michigan Law about clear lights to rear of a vehicle. NEED HELP
- Thread starter smsales
- Start date
I don't recall the exact website, I believe its under michigan.gov. Do a search for Michigan vehicle warning lights and it should come up under a pdf. file. Hope that helps alittle.
Just found it under plowsite.com, it didn't mention anything about no white lights to the rear?
Just found it under plowsite.com, it didn't mention anything about no white lights to the rear?
K9Vic
Member
Since when has white never been allowed on a fire vehicle for a government municipality?
I cannot see how this would be illegal as red & white pretty much is standard fire us in the USA. The blue is where it may not be allowed by state regulations other then police, but if white is allowed in Michigan for fire vehicles then it would be legal.
Additionally, whose going to write them a ticket even if it was, not the local PD. There are dozens of municipalities here in Texas that have illegal blue lights on the maintenance vehicles and the local PD is not citing them.
I cannot see how this would be illegal as red & white pretty much is standard fire us in the USA. The blue is where it may not be allowed by state regulations other then police, but if white is allowed in Michigan for fire vehicles then it would be legal.
Additionally, whose going to write them a ticket even if it was, not the local PD. There are dozens of municipalities here in Texas that have illegal blue lights on the maintenance vehicles and the local PD is not citing them.
i just dont want to install them and then the truck gets hit, bc they where blinded by the clear lights. then it falls on me.
K9Vic
Member
smsales said:
I am in the pro-flashing-white-to-the-rear camp. I suggest you put them on the bumper. I assume the bush tuck is pickup- based?
Scott, I tryed to find the law and I no such lucky. I have and will continue to mount clear in the
back of fire equipment as I make the chief sign a waiver of relief.
Have'nt had any problems
Jim Rogers
back of fire equipment as I make the chief sign a waiver of relief.
Have'nt had any problems
Jim Rogers
My god people. A pair or 2 of white flashing lights are NOT going to blind anybody any more or any less than a set of high beams or mis alighed headlights.
The "I'm afraid of white to the rear" bullshit is exactly that bullshit. If the customer desires white freaking do it. You're not going to gt sued over what a customer decided. Its on THEM not YOU.
The "I'm afraid of white to the rear" bullshit is exactly that bullshit. If the customer desires white freaking do it. You're not going to gt sued over what a customer decided. Its on THEM not YOU.
smsales said:
What you are thinking of is a private vehicle that has a broken tail light & emits white when used for brake or turn. If you would think about it, state, county & local police, all use a tail light flasher that alternately flashes the brake lights and the reverse lights.
For a emergency vehicle you can have flashing white.
Under MCL Section 257.698(4)
(h) An authorized emergency vehicle may display flashing, rotating, or oscillating white lights in conjunction with an authorized emergency light as prescribed in this section.
Hope this helps you. If you ever have a question on lights, just call your local state police post. You as a upfitter should know the law. Print this off as a guide
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/aftermarket_lighting_8570_7.pdf
car54 said:
2 things this site does not tell you. That when you are plowing you must have a amber only (the use of white is not allowed), clearly visible in a 360 degree arc from a distance of 500 feet when in use. This leave the cheap lights that go up & down out. The other one became law 1/1/2010. If you are paid for hire. You must have a minimum of a 87dB backup alarm in use when backing up.
cory y said:
I am going to disagree with you on this, & I am only saying this for Michigan & Wisconsin, but would guess all states have a similar law. Even at a customers request. if it would violate the law.
You as a dealer or upfitter shall not sell, loan or otherwise furnish a flashing, rotating, or oscillating light designed primarily for installation. You can be fined or can be subject to a lawsuit. You can argue about this with me all day long. But the law is the law.
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Run the clear to the rear, been doing for many years to any emergency equipment I have installed.
Just have the chief sign a waiver, no big. Law enforcement has not and does press the issue here and clear gets
more attention then any other color.
Jim Rogers
deputycheif301
Just have the chief sign a waiver, no big. Law enforcement has not and does press the issue here and clear gets
more attention then any other color.
Jim Rogers
deputycheif301
Fire1, I don't know what county you're from in Michigan, but it sounds like you're living in a
county that law enforcement is not pro fire.
Jim Rogers
deputychief301
county that law enforcement is not pro fire.
Jim Rogers
deputychief301
You are misreading what I said, that white is allowed under Michigan law for any emergency vehicle.deputychief301 said:
fire1 said:
I will argure with you all day long cause you have no clue about what you speak. Its not on me or my company if a customer uses an illegal light.
jprleedy4680
Member
Michigan Legislature - Section 257.603
MCL 257.603 (4)(5)
4) The exemptions granted in this section to an authorized emergency vehicle apply only when the driver of the vehicle while in motion sounds an audible signal by bell, siren, air horn, or exhaust whistle as may be reasonably necessary, except as provided in subsection (5), and when the vehicle is equipped with at least 1 lighted lamp displaying a flashing, oscillating, or rotating red or blue light visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of 500 feet in a 360 degree arc unless it is not advisable to equip a police vehicle operating as an authorized emergency vehicle with a flashing, oscillating or rotating light visible in a 360 degree arc. In those cases, a police vehicle shall display a flashing, oscillating, or rotating red or blue light visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of 500 feet to the front of the vehicle. Only police vehicles that are publicly owned shall be equipped with a flashing, oscillating, or rotating blue light that when activated is visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of 500 feet in a 360 degree arc.
(5) A police vehicle shall retain the exemptions granted in this section to an authorized emergency vehicle without sounding an audible signal if the police vehicle is engaged in an emergency run in which silence is required.
I have heard of the "no white to the rear" rule as well, but per this section of the MI Motor Vehicle Code, I cannot find
any wording saying it is not permitted. Many emergency vehicles I have seen all over the state have white HAW/LAW's in the reverse lights. Is there someone that could clear this up officially for we Michigan folks? Does anyone know of another section of the MVC where it bans the use of rear whites?
MCL 257.603 (4)(5)
4) The exemptions granted in this section to an authorized emergency vehicle apply only when the driver of the vehicle while in motion sounds an audible signal by bell, siren, air horn, or exhaust whistle as may be reasonably necessary, except as provided in subsection (5), and when the vehicle is equipped with at least 1 lighted lamp displaying a flashing, oscillating, or rotating red or blue light visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of 500 feet in a 360 degree arc unless it is not advisable to equip a police vehicle operating as an authorized emergency vehicle with a flashing, oscillating or rotating light visible in a 360 degree arc. In those cases, a police vehicle shall display a flashing, oscillating, or rotating red or blue light visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of 500 feet to the front of the vehicle. Only police vehicles that are publicly owned shall be equipped with a flashing, oscillating, or rotating blue light that when activated is visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of 500 feet in a 360 degree arc.
(5) A police vehicle shall retain the exemptions granted in this section to an authorized emergency vehicle without sounding an audible signal if the police vehicle is engaged in an emergency run in which silence is required.
I have heard of the "no white to the rear" rule as well, but per this section of the MI Motor Vehicle Code, I cannot find
any wording saying it is not permitted. Many emergency vehicles I have seen all over the state have white HAW/LAW's in the reverse lights. Is there someone that could clear this up officially for we Michigan folks? Does anyone know of another section of the MVC where it bans the use of rear whites?
Michigan has no restrictions on the placement of white light on authorized emergency vehicles. Put it front, rear, side, top, bottom, where ever you want. The only restriction is as fire1 pointed out - it can only be used in conjunction with red or blue on authorized emergency vehicles. It is not allowed on the wreckers (very abused) or plow/construction vehicles. Wreckers are only classified as "emergency vehicles" for the move-over law, they are not included for warning lights even though they are allowed to run red when stationary.
Also, Michigan does have law in place that holds installers/dealers responsible for providing unauthorized lights to end users. One cannot knowingly sell, install, etc, etc a light to someone who is not authorized to use it. Can't say I've ever heard of anyone being criminally charged for it, but technically it is a 93 day misdemeanor. Just one of those things up here.
Also, Michigan does have law in place that holds installers/dealers responsible for providing unauthorized lights to end users. One cannot knowingly sell, install, etc, etc a light to someone who is not authorized to use it. Can't say I've ever heard of anyone being criminally charged for it, but technically it is a 93 day misdemeanor. Just one of those things up here.
jprleedy4680 said:
There is no law that I know of. But to clarify it just call your local state police post.
badge22
Member
fire1 said:
Can you site these statutes please? Last I heard there was no law requiring a snow plow to have amber lights, just that they are permitted to.
Thanks
badge22
Member
cory y said:
Well, you're wrong. It is a misdemeanor in MI to provide a light or siren to an unauthorized person. If you do so and they commit a crime, you can then be civilly liable.
A person shall not sell, loan or otherwise furnish a flashing, rotating, or oscillating blue or red light designed primarily for installation
on an authorized emergency vehicle to a person except a police officer, volunteer or paid firefighter, volunteer ambulance driver,
licensed ambulance driver or attendant of the state, a county or municipality within the state, a person engaged in the business of
operating an ambulance or wrecker service, or a federally recognized nonprofit charitable organization which owns and operates an
emergency support vehicle used exclusively for emergencies. MCL 257.698(6)
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badge22
Member
Andy L. said:
Thanks Andy,
I am usually pretty good at keeping track of this stuff, but trying to search through the MI Legislature site is a big pain. Don't put too much effort into it, I know you probably have better things to do.
smsales said:
I am not sure there is anything pertaining to rear facing white. Michigan legislation is pretty vague in a lot of ways. I have had a variety of emergency light configurations on my own private vehicle over the years and have never had a law enforcement officer make an issue of it. As long as you don't have blue lights I think you are golden.
Just and update for you guys, only bc i have not seen it in replies. IT IS NOT A LAW, per say, i found it in NFPA 1901. Which trumps MI MVC. In 1901 it states that clear is
allowed in conjunction with red while moving. once you stop, and become stationary, the clear must be turned off. HOWEVER, in NFPA it states that clear maybe used in any position except for C which is the rear.
Thanks for all the replies. And I will post pics when the truck is done.
See Page 5.
http://www.whelen.com/pb/Automotive/Catalogs/NFPA_1901_Lighting_Specification_Catalog.pdf
allowed in conjunction with red while moving. once you stop, and become stationary, the clear must be turned off. HOWEVER, in NFPA it states that clear maybe used in any position except for C which is the rear.
Thanks for all the replies. And I will post pics when the truck is done.
See Page 5.
http://www.whelen.com/pb/Automotive/Catalogs/NFPA_1901_Lighting_Specification_Catalog.pdf
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smsales said:
Nope youre Wrong.
NFPA is not a Law in any way shape or form it is merely a GUIDELINE!
CenTexPSE
Member
smsales said:
NFPA Guidelines do SUGGEST no white/clear to the rear - and to be complainant with NFPA, that along with a whole list of other things need to be met. As far as the Michigan MVC though, it isn't trumped by NFPA, so going solely off Michigan MVC white is allowed to be anywhere in a lighting setup so long as its used in conjunction with red and/or blue given the vehicle type. So once you meet the basic requirement of roof mounted 360 degree red on POV, Fire, and EMS vehicles you are good to go with the white in the rear. There are just a lot of people who don't support the use of white to the rear. As long as its done in moderation and used with a little common sense I don't see any problem with it. I have a few installs using white to the rear. However, most of the agencies I install for around here are opting to use the primary colors in the rear anymore. Red/blue LED inserts in tail lights for law vehicles and Red/Amber LED inserts for Fire/EMS.
I would like to preface my remarks with two things:
1) I can't imagine the police having issue with white being installed in this case.
2) I am not familiar with Michigan Law.
However,
What are the national laws regarding lighting? Isn't there a provision from NHTSA or DOT regarding rear facing light only being used while a vehicle is reversing?
And then...
Does Michigan have any laws that make the federal laws enforceable by local/state authorities?
(In Massachusetts, we can enforce Federal DOT rules regarding non-OEM lighting equipment (for example) because we have a Mass General Law that says we can follow the Fed wording in enforcement.)
You know, just to throw another wrench in the conversation.
1) I can't imagine the police having issue with white being installed in this case.
2) I am not familiar with Michigan Law.
However,
What are the national laws regarding lighting? Isn't there a provision from NHTSA or DOT regarding rear facing light only being used while a vehicle is reversing?
And then...
Does Michigan have any laws that make the federal laws enforceable by local/state authorities?
(In Massachusetts, we can enforce Federal DOT rules regarding non-OEM lighting equipment (for example) because we have a Mass General Law that says we can follow the Fed wording in enforcement.)
You know, just to throw another wrench in the conversation.
badge22 said:
Got it figured out. Senate Bill 0980 of 02/2010 lists the changes. The bill was postponed though in 12/2010 so that's why nothing more has been heard on it as of yet.
2009-SEBS-0980.pdf
Zack said:I would like to preface my remarks with two things:
1) I can't imagine the police having issue with white being installed in this case.
2) I am not familiar with Michigan Law.
However,
What are the national laws regarding lighting? Isn't there a provision from NHTSA or DOT regarding rear facing light only being used while a vehicle is reversing?
And then...
Does Michigan have any laws that make the federal laws enforceable by local/state authorities?
(In Massachusetts, we can enforce Federal DOT rules regarding non-OEM lighting equipment (for example) because we have a Mass General Law that says we can follow the Fed wording in enforcement.)
You know, just to throw another wrench in the conversation.
Interesting points Zach. I will dig through and see what there is that provides for that authority. Seems I've read that somewhere in the MI MVC...to the effect of "a vehicle must meet Federal DOT standards in place at the time of manufacture." I know it isn't common place for most officer to enforce things in that manner, but that isn't to say it can't be done.
Andy L. said:
Yeah, I grabbed one of my references so I could get this right...
In MA we have CMRs which allows an LEO to basically enforce the rules outlined in the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations.
Here is the background for those interested:
The legislature enacts "laws" which govern all of us. One day someone realized that different agencies in the state need a way to enforce their own rules... so a "law" was passed allowing for this to happen.
Then individual agencies (like the Registry of Motor Vehicles, or Office of Emergency Medical Services) drafted up their own "regulations" where carry the weight of "law" thanks to that first actual "law" the legislature passed.
A good example would be when the neon undercarriage lighting became popular with cars. Instead of having to draft and enact a new law through the state legislature, our RMV just made a new regulation prohibiting it. And then *poof* LE could enforce the ban on them.
The relevancy this has to this thread is that here in Massachusetts, there exists a CMR (Commonwealth of Mass Regulation) which states that all vehicles must abide by the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations. So for example, even though it's not directly illegal for someone in my state to mount little purple LEDs in their windshield washer fluid jets... we have a state regulation that states all vehicles must comply with the Federal regulation, which *does* prohibit such lights.
It would be worth a check of 49 CFR Part 571 and see what it says about lighting... and then see if MI has it's own law or regulation requiring vehicles to comply.
Zack said:
Alright... I'm getting my law geek on...
(I am in no way trying to submit that every emergency vehicle out there needs to be corrected, or that we need to change the way we do things... I'm just having fun seeing what the law technically allows.)
49 CFR Part 571 states:
Which would seem to prohibit the drilling into reflectors or housings for the placement of hide-a-ways.
49 CFR Part 571 also states:
This seem to prohibit flashing back up lamps... which would make illegal "traffic backers" or other such devices.
Granted, these are Federal regulations governing the design of vehicles. But as I stated earlier in the thread, in my state of Massachusetts we have a regulation that requires all vehicles to comply with this very Federal regulation.
Looks like I'm going to be boring a lot of people with this new technicality.
but i thought you had to comply with NFPA? wouldn't that mean following there guidelines? Just to make things clear, I AM IN NO WAY ARGUING OR WANT TO FIGHT WITH ANYBODY, im just trying to figure this out. I DO NOT want this to become a back and forth fight. Thanks for all the help!
CenTexPSE
Member
Lots of people try to push the "You have to comply with NFPA" . NFPA is just a set of guidelines, no laws.
One way that you may have to comply with NFPA is on a grant. If you received a grant for this vehicle, it MIGHT state in the contract that it must have an NFPA compliant lighting package. That may be something you need to check in to.
If there are no stipulations like that, then the NFPA guidelines are just that, guidelines.
One way that you may have to comply with NFPA is on a grant. If you received a grant for this vehicle, it MIGHT state in the contract that it must have an NFPA compliant lighting package. That may be something you need to check in to.
If there are no stipulations like that, then the NFPA guidelines are just that, guidelines.
CenTexPSE said:
Well said.
There may also be State regulations that require vehicles to comply. (In my State our EMS Governing body requires ambulances to meet KKK standards to be licensed for example.)
badge22
Member
Andy L. said:
Response from the Michigan State Police:
Thank you for posting your question with Contact MSP. It has been forwarded to my office for a response.
According to the Michigan Vehicle Code, "(5) The use or possession of flashing, oscillating, or rotating lights of any color is prohibited except as otherwise provided by law, or under the following circumstances:
(d) Flashing, rotating, or oscillating amber lights, placed in a position as to be visible throughout an arc of 360 degrees, shall be used by a state, county, or municipal vehicle engaged in the removal of ice, snow, or other material from the highway and in other operations designed to control ice and snow.
(f) a vehicle utilized for snow removal...may be equipped with flashing, rotating, or oscillating amber lights. The flashing, rotating, or oscillating amber lights shall not be activated except in those circumstances that the warning produced by the lights is required for public safety."
State, county or city owned snowplows are required to have the light. Private snowplow drivers are not required to have the light. They may ONLY activate it in those circumstances that the warning produced by the light is required for public safety while plowing. They are not allowed to drive down the road with it activated.
You may view the law here. It is covered in subsection 5(d) & (f): Michigan Legislature - Section 257.698
There is not a state law or commercial vehicle requirement to have a backup alarm.
Thank you,
Sgt. Jill M. Bennett
Michigan State Police
Traffic Safety Division
Traffic Services Section
333 S. Grand Avenue
Lansing, MI 48933
TX: 517-241-0576
Fax: 517-241-0501
badge22 said:
I am guessing that for whatever reason the proposed bill 0980 died off since its been 9 months since it was tabled. The answer above from MSP lists the current state laws which have been in place for as long as I can remember. I don't really see much need for the proposed changes myself...seems most all snow plows are running amber lights as needed already. Now if they would enact a law that banned the sale of those $5 blinking lights the newspaper delivery people use I would be all for it!
badge22
Member
Andy L. said:
Amen on the Wal-Mart blinkies.!
However, State Troopers in Alcona County are stopping snow plow drivers and ordering them to get amber lights or be cited.