No Love for White Lights

[JPolston]

Just bored and feel like striking up a friendly new conversation.


As I look through this site, light suppliers, and other firefighters I see throughout the area, I have noticed the very little use of white to the front. Whats up with this? I myself prefer white in all forward lighting and minor white lighting to the rear, due the my opinion that white will catch a person's attention first. That's the entire point of the light, catch attention and provide warning.


I am one of two people on my entire department that has white in our primary warning light. Just about everyone else in the entire area, not just my department, use only solid blue in all of their POV lighting. On here, I see some white, but there's a lot of solid lighting whether it be red, blue, green, or combo. On sellers' sites, normally there's always an additional add on to the price when doing a split with white, especially with blue.


I guess the whole point of this thread is; What's everyone's opinion on adding white to their lighting? Opinions on white in general? Sellers, why does adding white add a bit more to the price of some of your products? How much split lighting with white do you actually tend to sell?


Please please please remember this is just a friendly convo, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. We all have our favorites.

 

[Jamey@NNE]

I love white to the front and front side for that reason, gets everyone's attention better than red/blue but to the rear is blinding at night and unsafe IMO.

 

[Carlos SpicyWeiner]

Just bored and feel like striking up a friendly new conversation.

As I look through this site, light suppliers, and other firefighters I see throughout the area, I have noticed the very little use of white to the front. Whats up with this? I myself prefer white in all forward lighting and minor white lighting to the rear, due the my opinion that white will catch a person's attention first. That's the entire point of the light, catch attention and provide warning.


I am one of two people on my entire department that has white in our primary warning light. Just about everyone else in the entire area, not just my department, use only solid blue in all of their POV lighting. On here, I see some white, but there's a lot of solid lighting whether it be red, blue, green, or combo. On sellers' sites, normally there's always an additional add on to the price when doing a split with white, especially with blue.


I guess the whole point of this thread is; What's everyone's opinion on adding white to their lighting? Opinions on white in general? Sellers, why does adding white add a bit more to the price of some of your products? How much split lighting with white do you actually tend to sell?


Please please please remember this is just a friendly convo, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. We all have our favorites.

I my self love the use of white. I have a pegasus with four take down modules and sxtd's in my justice bar that I have set to flash. It really does get people's attention. The problem comes to when it is left on or used in situations that don't require it.


Not all manufacturer's do charge more for white. The ones that do... do so because well... they can

 

[JohnMarcson]

It's fine in small doses. Too much washes out the other colors. It also needs to be shut off on scene.

 

[JPolston]

I love white to the front and front side for that reason, gets everyone's attention better than red/blue but to the rear is blinding at night and unsafe IMO.

I totally agree, but I do like very little white to the rear. Just as a quick attention grabber. Our rescue has, I believe, 2 Whelen 900 series lightheads to the rear, the one on the right has red on the top half but amber on the lower and the left head has red upper and white lower. The mixture of a quick clear and amber really does pop and catch your attention. Now if only we could get to working on our engine.

I my self love the use of white. I have a pegasus with four take down modules and sxtd's in my justice bar that I have set to flash. It really does get people's attention.

Not all manufacturer's do charge more for white. The ones that do... do so because well... they can

I LOVE the pegasus and would love to be able to get ahold of one, but I don't have the funds for that what so ever at the moment, nor would it look right in a cavalier lol. I guess I can see the "because they can" aspect, I just don't quite understand the point. White/clear is cheaper(if I'm correct) so I just don't understand how tossing it into a light set up would increase the price. Oh well. I'm not in the business so I don't know anything about it.

 

[fireman29b]

I have the dual LINZ6 fog lights and SOS Intersectors in clear on my FD Tahoe and its VERY attention getting, even in full sunlight. I like some clear to front and intersections as it is very attention getting and those areas are the most critical. I also recently added a pair of clear ION's on LP brackets to the rear and its very effective as well.

 

[FatherOfFour]

It also needs to be shut off on scene.

Curious as to why you say it should be shut off on scene?

 

[Solvarex]

Curious as to why you say it should be shut off on scene?

This can't be a serious question...

 

[Carlos SpicyWeiner]

Curious as to why you say it should be shut off on scene?

Unless the blinding light needs to be on to blind occupants of a vehicle or to illuminate the scene... white at night tends to be blinding which is pointless. Sometimes blinding light will cause motorist to slow down, however; the colored lights at night will most likely do enough of it. No reason to go overboad.

This can't be a serious question...

Why not? People come to this site to learn. I hardly knew anything before I came to this site and it is because of people on this site that (who didn't ridicule me for asking questions that they thought were "stupid") I learned enough to effectively outfit numerous cars in my area.

 

[JohnMarcson]

I like the NFPA concepts of clearing and blocking. White is for clearing the right of way only.


Many fire and ems vehicles go into "blocking mode" when put in park. This disables all white/clear and often shuts off intersection lights. This is an NFPA thing, but also a good idea. Flashing white light is distracting and disorienting on scene. Many medical helicopter services request that white be kept turned off on their approach as well. Lights should be purpose driven. NFPA also allows amber to the front when a vehicle is stopped. I have often thought multicolor LEDs that are amber or white would be a great thing to set to the park kill as well.


Below is a breakdown of NFPA color guidelines. Keep in mind these are not law, only guidelines developed through research that depts may choose to follow to limit their liabilities.

 

[JPolston]

No reason to go overboad.

That right there is key for me personally. Like I said, our rescue has that single white half on the rear and that's how I like set-ups. I don't mind white to the rear, as long as it's very minor. Actually, in all honestly, I like white to the rear.

 

[Bonanno]

HLF, alleys sweeps if thy have it, corner HAWS, flashing TD/flood. Other then that everything else should be red/blue to front. Rear 50% red, 25% blue, 25% amber.


White/clear disabled when in park.

 

[FSEP]

Coming from an all white in the front for pov state, I can't really say there's a lack of white here. Lol however, I also have noticed the lack of white options for dash lights. It is really quite annoying.


Well that, and not being able to run code. :hissyfit: but that's another conversation for a different time.

 

[Eric1249]

The other night we got sent to a 8 alarm fire at a food plant in Burlington WI. We got there around midnight. So we were tired to begin with. While running a tanker/tender shuttle I think I was the only one to shut off my HLF. They (HLF) are attention getting, but with that many truck there was no real need for them. Most of the trucks when parked, most of the whitle lights would shut off.


I have clear LEDs in my reverse lights and red in the brake lights. I have them flashing to mimic a tail light flasher. For the most part my truck was all red except the HLF. I just added a red/clear dash light. After seeing a little clear mixed in there I am thinking about adding a little to the sides. I saw an older tanker/tender the other night that had a Federal Areodynic (spelling?) that was all clear to the pass side, and all red on drivers side. Same with the grill lights. I think chear has to be used in moderation.


I saw a video last night on Youtube that a FD pickup with a cap had a 8 head Whelen Dominator in all clear to the rear. That has to be blinding. I knew I should have saved that video

 

[FatherOfFour]

This can't be a serious question...

Actually, it was....

Unless the blinding light needs to be on to blind occupants of a vehicle or to illuminate the scene... white at night tends to be blinding which is pointless. Sometimes blinding light will cause motorist to slow down, however; the colored lights at night will most likely do enough of it. No reason to go overboad.

Ahh see I was going with the idea of forward facing white light and thinking about how it DOES blind vehicle occupants so they can't see what I'm doing/where I am. I kinda like that aspect. If they can't see me they can't shoot me.....

 

[dcfrmp255]

Coming from an all white in the front for pov state, I can't really say there's a lack of white here. Lol however, I also have noticed the lack of white options for dash lights. It is really quite annoying.

Well that, and not being able to run code. :hissyfit: but that's another conversation for a different time.

In the same boat and feel your pain... :hopeless:

 

[Carlos SpicyWeiner]

Actually, it was....



Ahh see I was going with the idea of forward facing white light and thinking about how it DOES blind vehicle occupants so they can't see what I'm doing/where I am. I kinda like that aspect. If they can't see me they can't shoot me.....

Not all of us are cops or are always using them for traffic stops though. I guess thats the points where u dont want it. I've had a masssive amount of take down light come in very handy on a pursuit. It was blinding the suspect to the point where he ran off the road trying to hit his mirrors. I took that chance to put an end to the pursuit

 

[Flashguy]

I have often thought multicolor LEDs that are amber or white would be a great thing to set to the park kill as well.

How about white when in drive that becomes amber in park? That'd probably work well...


I do like white to the front, I've had a red/white dual avenger and a red/white Slimlighter that worked well with traffic. I'm seeing these newer lightbars come out with dual color and in drive the switch with white! It's very attention getting...


My .02 - At night I want enough lights to show the footprint of the vehicle, but not blind anyone. My traffic vest needs to be the most visible on scene...and if you have too much blinkies on...they'll never see your vest (you.) I love vehicles that have a secondary mode that do a slower flash on the outlining lights only.

 

[Storm4200]

i like a small amount of white. You want is as an attention grabber, but dont want it to wash out the warning color. Im Flashing duallys on my push bumper as wig/wags, and flashing take downs on an ILS bar The rest is blue. I have them wired to the same switch so i can shut them OFF. At night, there is NO need for them. For the rear, i like a pair of clear strobes in the reverse lights. THATS about IT! i think a little bit of clear or white, break up a sea of flashing red and blue very nicely. Just adds a little contrast. You dont want them to be blinding or overkill (D8 to the rear in all white, 2 900s all white, etc would be overkill). Flashing White is not needed AT ALL at night. There are plenty other lights that will be 'warning' traffic. no need to blind people with flashing clear, especially while stopped. The NFPA is right on this one.


Im not a fan of amber to the front on an emergency vehicle, but i don't mind amber to the rear, especially if its individually switched. I love having the capability to run JUST amber to the rear, i use it A LOT.

 

[tnems7]

I run red and white to front and red/amber to rear in a Whelen Responder LED mini-bar which usually stays in my sedan.


Headlight flashers or flashing fog lights are preferred. For a dual color dash light, you could consider a Federal Firebeam. My current throw light on my 2011 Honda Pilot, acquired last November, is a red Federal FBII Strobe and the dual color Firebeam for the Dash. I will probably be making the lighting and radio install into the Pilot later this year.

 

[lotsofbars]

I wish that all fire apparatus in the universe would run red/white in drive to the front and well-segregated red/blue/amber to the rear. That would be the best. That's what they're doing here and it's great. The FDNY and NYPD both love their white lights.

 

[JPolston]

I wish that all fire apparatus in the universe would run red/white in drive to the front and well-segregated red/blue/amber to the rear. That would be the best. That's what they're doing here and it's great. The FDNY and NYPD both love their white lights.

Not a fan of blue on FD apparatus at all, that's just me. I can understand EMT green and a green light on chiefs vehicles, but green or blue on any other fire apparatus just annoys the heck out of. Then again, I don't like blue lights on a red POV, or red lights on a blue POV. Again, just me.

 

[Storm4200]

I don't mind blue in fire apparatus, but ONLY to the rear.

 

[foxtrot5]

In VERY small quantities (and small footprint) I like white to the rear. My Silverado has a R/A/R 911EP TD/WL36 at the top of the rear window, 2x dual avengers in R/R at the bottom of the window, and LAWs in the break and reverse lights. The tiny footprint of the white LAW in the reverse lights is just enough to add contrast without blinding anyone IMHO.

 

[lotsofbars]

Not a fan of blue on FD apparatus at all, that's just me. I can understand EMT green and a green light on chiefs vehicles, but green or blue on any other fire apparatus just annoys the heck out of. Then again, I don't like blue lights on a red POV, or red lights on a blue POV. Again, just me.

I used to feel the same way, but then NYS passed legislation allowing blue on the rear of all emergency vehicles, and it really distinguishes them from behind, especially during the nights on highways when they could be anything. One or two well-placed blue lights really make a lot of difference.

 

[nerdly_dood]

IMO white lights should be used very sparingly to call attention to the colored lights, if they aren't noticed first. White lights very easily overpower other colors, without communicating any message at all. Red or blue lights mean "I need to get somewhere right now, I'll get there quicker if you aren't in my way." Amber lights mean "Big mess over here, try not to run into it." White lights mean "AAAAAAAAAAAA!"

 

[EMT-BLS]

I used to feel the same way, but then NYS passed legislation allowing blue on the rear of all emergency vehicles, and it really distinguishes them from behind

If I'm looking at a behind, you can be sure it won't be of a cop car...


I think what people tend to forget is the function of the lights. I break it down on all my vehicles really simple:


Front: is for response *only*.


Sides: (HAWs, intersection brackets, PB side mounts) is intersection crossings, and on-scene markers.


Rear: is "Keep back" while responding, and "Don't hit me" when on scene. I wouldn't put a attention-getting light if I don't need your attention.


Using a Smart Siren as my controller, my setup is:


Pos 0-Off, all sirens tones available (that's just for demo, everyone calm down. )


Pos 1-Corner mounted LAWs and T6's on a intersection bracket.


Pos 2-Corner mounted LAWs, T6's, and rear deck lights (red/blue, colors sync-ed)


Pos 3-Everything.

 

[stfd717]

I like the NFPA concepts of clearing and blocking. White is for clearing the right of way only.


Many fire and ems vehicles go into "blocking mode" when put in park. This disables all white/clear and often shuts off intersection lights. This is an NFPA thing, but also a good idea. Flashing white light is distracting and disorienting on scene. Many medical helicopter services request that white be kept turned off on their approach as well. Lights should be purpose driven. NFPA also allows amber to the front when a vehicle is stopped. I have often thought multicolor LEDs that are amber or white would be a great thing to set to the park kill as well.


Below is a breakdown of NFPA color guidelines. Keep in mind these are not law, only guidelines developed through research that depts may choose to follow to limit their liabilities.

I agree with John, the NFPA formula for lighting is just about right for Fire Apparatus, I don't know that all POV's need to follow it, but it's a great guideline. I don't mind a little bit of white to the front and front intersection areas for calling for right-of-way; but once on scene, the white should go away.

I wish that all fire apparatus in the universe would run red/white in drive to the front and well-segregated red/blue/amber to the rear. That would be the best. That's what they're doing here and it's great. The FDNY and NYPD both love their white lights.

Blue is a good "change of pace" color, it has better punch in rain/fog than red does and a little bit does help IMO. Now having said that, NFPA does not list "blue" as part of the standard, but most trucks will have some blue in there somewhere. The only white I have to the rear is in my TLF's and that's as far as I'm wanting to go with white to the rear, when I'm in the calling for the right-of way mode, I don't need it to the rear; when I'm in the blocking mode, I would argue that Amber to the rear has as much, if not more, attenting calling ability as a white flash would when used in conjunction with Red and/or Blue. As a traditionalist, I'm good with all Red/White/Amber for my fire truck, but a couple of blue heads to the front and rear is all good too!

 

[Sigma Safety]

I agree with John, the NFPA formula for lighting is just about right for Fire Apparatus, I don't know that all POV's need to follow it, but it's a great guideline. I don't mind a little bit of white to the front and front intersection areas for calling for right-of-way; but once on scene, the white should go away.

You may not need to follow NFPA for POV's (though keep in mind NFPA has "small vehicle" standards, not just "apparatus" standards) ,but you should at minimum follow SAE J2498 which covers all emergency vehicles. The lighting colour portion of J2498 is the same as the NFPA standard that John posted.


We design all our fire vehicles, including pickup trucks and SUVs, to meet NFPA standards. The Small Vehicles standard is easy - NFPA compliant lightbar on the roof, pair of grille lights, 1 light on each front fender facing sideways. Follow the standard NFPA colour standards per John's post above. Done.

 

[Sigma Safety]

IMO white lights should be used very sparingly to call attention to the colored lights, if they aren't noticed first. White lights very easily overpower other colors, without communicating any message at all. Red or blue lights mean "I need to get somewhere right now, I'll get there quicker if you aren't in my way." Amber lights mean "Big mess over here, try not to run into it." White lights mean "AAAAAAAAAAAA!"

I couldn't agree more with this post. The only clarification is that white really means "I know there's something there but no clue what it is". As mentioned above, white does not communicate any message to motorists. The intent of the NFPA and SAE is to train motorists to learn that flashing white means a) emergency vehicle and B) it's moving and c) it's coming towards me. If you put flashing white on the rear of a vehicle (especially one that's stopped), it blows that "training" out of the water.


While white is arguably more visible, because it can dazzle motorists and it doesn't communicate any message, then why use it? If you can see amber from 3 miles and white from 4 miles, do you really need white when 3 miles of warning is more than enough? Those number are arbitrary but you get my point.


Amber is ALWAYS a good colour for warning other motorists, especially when your vehicle is stopped (note NFPA/SAE don't allow flashing amber to front when moving). If you ask 10 people what flashing white means, they generally won't be able to tell you. If you ask them what flashing amber means, everyone knows it means a hazard ahead. I've given many seminars on this topic and the results are ALWAYS the same. Even with emergency responders, they don't know how to describe to someone what flashing white means.


I don't really care if you think my vehicle is a police car or a fire truck, just don't hit me. When they get closer they'll see my reds and blues (or whatever colours your services run) and know who I am, but my first priority is to advise motorists (as far back as possible) that there is a hazard ahead.


I'm a BIG fan of judiciously placed white to front for traffic clearing. It's extremely powerful for traffic clearing, but never to rear, and never while stopped.

 

[Sigma Safety]

Ahh see I was going with the idea of forward facing white light and thinking about how it DOES blind vehicle occupants so they can't see what I'm doing/where I am. I kinda like that aspect. If they can't see me they can't shoot me.....

Use steady-burn white then. They're called Takedowns and spotlights. It creates a "light wall" that you can step behind so the vehicle occupants can't see you. That's coverd in Traffic Stops 101.

 

[FSEP]

In the same boat and feel your pain... :hopeless:

It's horrible man. :sadcry:

 

[FireMedic36]

I had some white to the front on my old car, and while they were bright I had them mounted down on the front license plate and they didn't seem to do any good - at least not during the day. I have since gone back to all blue to the front, blue to the sides, and blue/amber to the rear.


I believe there was an NFPA regulation put into place not too long ago that states any new "emergency apparatus" that is manufactured after a certain date has to be wired to disable all white lights upon setting the parking break. My department has two newer apparatus that do this, there is no way around it that we've found. With that being said, I don't know if that applied to personal vehicles as well, but it probably isn't a bad idea - mostly because of the reasons stated here prior (decreased visibility for oncoming drivers, etc.).

 

[Doug]

I like white lights for their pop - not much can beat a headlight flasher (well, except for now, with LED scenelights that can flash)! However, I feel that the "white lights are too bright" argument is over since most emergency vehicles are equipped with LEDs; I've found that the red LEDs are generally brighter than the white ones. Just my two cents.

 

[FSEP]

I had some white to the front on my old car, and while they were bright I had them mounted down on the front license plate and they didn't seem to do any good - at least not during the day. I have since gone back to all blue to the front, blue to the sides, and blue/amber to the rear.

There's the problem. Lights on the front LP are almost always ineffective except at long distances, and even then so-so.

I believe there was an NFPA regulation put into place not too long ago that states any new "emergency apparatus" that is manufactured after a certain date has to be wired to disable all white lights upon setting the parking break. My department has two newer apparatus that do this, there is no way around it that we've found. With that being said, I don't know if that applied to personal vehicles as well, but it probably isn't a bad idea - mostly because of the reasons stated here prior (decreased visibility for oncoming drivers, etc.).

Ahh you see this is when you go in and tweek the system yourself. :yes:

 

[FatherOfFour]

Use steady-burn white then. They're called Takedowns and spotlights. It creates a "light wall" that you can step behind so the vehicle occupants can't see you. That's coverd in Traffic Stops 101.

True, TDs and a spot are great for that, however a set of white DLX3s in the grill flashing seem to make the light wall more effective. I think it's because the changing of the light output (via the flash pattern) causes the person's pupils to dilate and contract....course, that's just a theory. What I can say for sure is that looking at a car with TDs and a spot vs TDs, spot, and some flashing white, I find it harder to see the operator with the flashing white.

 

[JPolston]

I despise blue to the rear on fire apparatus. My chief and I were actually talking about that the other day.. I think we're pretty sold on red, white, and amber only. White I'm trying to do is convince him of getting ahold of some PowerArcs and installing them on some of our trucks.

 

[nerdly_dood]

I despise blue to the rear on fire apparatus. My chief and I were actually talking about that the other day.. I think we're pretty sold on red, white, and amber only. White I'm trying to do is convince him of getting ahold of some PowerArcs and installing them on some of our trucks.

The rear IMO is the most useful place for two blue lights, no bigger than a Whelen 700-series, with a slow single-flash pattern. They stand out against red taillights, but if used sparingly and without a multi-flash pattern (i.e. strobes, or LEDs with CometFlash, ActionFlash, etc) they aren't blinding. If used liberally, i.e. every police car in the South, or with a flash pattern that has any fast aspects to it, they absolutely are blinding though. Another alternative is to use two slow blue rotating beacons on the top of a fire apparatus for rear warning - they don't send a conflicting message if they're visible to the front like amber does, and if there aren't any other blue lights to the rear they'll provide excellent visibility without hurting people's vision.

 

[Doug]

The rear IMO is the most useful place for two blue lights, no bigger than a Whelen 700-series, with a slow single-flash pattern.

I've been thinking of one, maybe two, steady burning, rear facing blue lights. If the California light works so well up front, why not apply the concept to the rear?

 

[car54]

Here's a penny for thought. Lately around here its been foggy where school and public transit buses use there white rear beacons to be seen. Why not use say white lights in this scenerio?