Replacing the NREMT

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
Mike L. said:
I PERSONALLY don't feel the test is set up to make you fail. If you read the questions carefully and you know your material you will pass. In my EMT School, they have a 95% success rate of students passing the first time. I find that most people fail for one of two reasons a) they don't read the question or B) they make assumptions about the questions. I am NR Certified and have been since May of 2012. WA requires we take the NR test since there is no State Test. There is no requirement to maintain NREMT Certification though. Again, this is my PERSONAL opinion. It definately doesn't relate to field experience though.

As far as titles go, I really don't care what I am called. My uniform clearly has EMT on the patches. When I walk in it "hey the Medics are here". Even fire, other medics, and doctors call us medics. On an International level most countries call their EMS personnel "Paramedics". I don't even know if EMT is used outside the US. So if Paramedic seems to be the "norm" then why not have a Paramedic and an Advanced Paramedic. I think it would be less confusing for the public. Personally I think all EMTs should be trained to the AEMT level. Being able to interpret a 12 lead and start an IV as well as push some drugs would be more beneficial for the patient.


Here in WA there is a Statewide protocol followed by every county having their own protocols which may differ from the State. Then each department / company has their own protocol. That is too many hands in the Medical Director pot. Care, protocols and skills should be standardized.


Again I am only expressing MY experiences with the NREMT test and MY opinions. Not trying to start a flame war here.
Listen, when I get on scene, people tell each other, "Oh, good, the ambulance is here." I'm not an ambulance, but I get what they're trying to say. But to me, it's not worth the time and effort to try and educate people as to what patch means what. If you need proof that public education doesn't work, look at lights and sirens...From even before you get your driver's training manual, it's beaten into you: Pull over to the right and stop when you see an emergency vehicle. Do they? No, they do anything but that. Slam on their brakes, pull over to the left, speed up...


What we should be doing is appealing for EMS to have normal response capabilities (use of warning lights, not courtesy), additional training for those that want to better themselves, and the doing away of idiotic levels in training. Either you're a Basic, or you're a Medic. That should be it. No more "Well, I can start a line and intubate, but can't give meds". It's pointless, and really doesn't help anyone. We need to improve ourselves, so that we can improve patient care standards.
 

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
1) Levels of Certification


There should be two levels of certification:


• EMT-Basic


• EMT-Paramedic


Skill level will remain unchanged. Basically, this will eliminate “mid-level” EMT’s, who are kind of Medics, but not quite, yet still more certified than a Basic. They should be given the choice of supplementing to the level of Medic, or be downgraded to Basic. A problem that I've actually seen happen due to theses mid-level EMT-I/AEMT’s is the dispatcher forgets or doesn't know that the unit responding is not true ALS, and because of that, the patient will not have ALS until the EMT-I/AEMT reminds the dispatcher that they can only start a line, not push meds. (I realize that each state has its own protocols, I’m not interested in making this a state-by-state breakdown. I’m being general on purpose.)


2) Continuing Education


Certified EMTs should have a readily accessible Continuing Education system that would allow them to gain additional skills and certifications. EMTs that have completed CE courses should be not upgraded, but “enhanced”. They should not be given new patches, only rockers to go above or below their existing patch. (i.e. if Jon Doe, BLS, finished a course on Tactical EMS, he is not a EMT-T, he is a BLS unit that should be called if there’s a Active Shooter incident. And when he shows up, he’ll be wearing his regular BLS uniform, with a rocker that read TACTICAL above his BLS patch.)


3) Testing Standards


It would be incredibly foolish of me, or anyone that didn’t take the time to do the research, to decide which testing method is the best. But I will say this: The current system is set up that if you fail, you’re most likely so disheartened with the whole thing that you let it fall to the wayside. EMS should be about helping those that need help, by assisting them in the areas where they are lacking. If you fail a practical station, it will not help anyone if the testing official keeps the reason of failure a secret. If a candidate were to fail a station, they should have the choice of meeting with the proctor after the testing of others is complete, and the proctor can explain the candidate’s mistakes, and possible tips on how to avoid them.


4) Lobbying for better EMS laws for patient care and safety.


It is generally accepted that EMS workers are in some form of danger at least once during a shift. Obviously, it would make no sense to press charges against a patient with a psych history, but what about the guy that rammed a ambulance intentionally? Or the drunk driver that swerved around the blocking fire engine, and slammed into a active MVA that was being worked by 4 EMT’s? These are people that should be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law, and there should be people fighting for our right to be attacked by people. I’ve gone back and forth as to how a theoretical EMS “Main Board” would work…would it be two distinguished EMT’s from every state? Should it rather be a vote? Or should whoever cares come together and have meetings as to how to lobby for better rights for EMS? I don’t pretend to have the answer, but it is out there, and we should have a body of respected EMTs that are out to help us, while we help others.


5) Lastly, the above mentioned “group” should have all states do away with EMS using courtesy lights. I can guarantee you, when that lawmaker’s mother is actively coding, he doesn’t give a damn if you come by parachute, he wants you to be there immediately. The hypocrisy of allowing EMTs to save lives, but not give them all the tools necessary to do so, is plain and idiotic. EMTs should obviously be governed by a station chief, or supervisor, as to making sure they have the proper training and licensure, but they should be allowed to respond with lights and sirens when the situation requires it.
 

Phillyrube

Member
May 21, 2010
1,272
Flatistan
EMT-BLS said:
1) Levels of Certification
There should be two levels of certification:


• EMT-Basic


• EMT-Paramedic


Skill level will remain unchanged. Basically, this will eliminate “mid-level” EMT’s, who are kind of Medics, but not quite, yet still more certified than a Basic. They should be given the choice of supplementing to the level of Medic, or be downgraded to Basic. A problem that I've actually seen happen due to theses mid-level EMT-I/AEMT’s is the dispatcher forgets or doesn't know that the unit responding is not true ALS, and because of that, the patient will not have ALS until the EMT-I/AEMT reminds the dispatcher that they can only start a line, not push meds. (I realize that each state has its own protocols, I’m not interested in making this a state-by-state breakdown. I’m being general on purpose.)


2) Continuing Education


Certified EMTs should have a readily accessible Continuing Education system that would allow them to gain additional skills and certifications. EMTs that have completed CE courses should be not upgraded, but “enhanced”. They should not be given new patches, only rockers to go above or below their existing patch. (i.e. if Jon Doe, BLS, finished a course on Tactical EMS, he is not a EMT-T, he is a BLS unit that should be called if there’s a Active Shooter incident. And when he shows up, he’ll be wearing his regular BLS uniform, with a rocker that read TACTICAL above his BLS patch.)


3) Testing Standards


It would be incredibly foolish of me, or anyone that didn’t take the time to do the research, to decide which testing method is the best. But I will say this: The current system is set up that if you fail, you’re most likely so disheartened with the whole thing that you let it fall to the wayside. EMS should be about helping those that need help, by assisting them in the areas where they are lacking. If you fail a practical station, it will not help anyone if the testing official keeps the reason of failure a secret. If a candidate were to fail a station, they should have the choice of meeting with the proctor after the testing of others is complete, and the proctor can explain the candidate’s mistakes, and possible tips on how to avoid them.


4) Lobbying for better EMS laws for patient care and safety.


It is generally accepted that EMS workers are in some form of danger at least once during a shift. Obviously, it would make no sense to press charges against a patient with a psych history, but what about the guy that rammed a ambulance intentionally? Or the drunk driver that swerved around the blocking fire engine, and slammed into a active MVA that was being worked by 4 EMT’s? These are people that should be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law, and there should be people fighting for our right to be attacked by people. I’ve gone back and forth as to how a theoretical EMS “Main Board” would work…would it be two distinguished EMT’s from every state? Should it rather be a vote? Or should whoever cares come together and have meetings as to how to lobby for better rights for EMS? I don’t pretend to have the answer, but it is out there, and we should have a body of respected EMTs that are out to help us, while we help others.


5) Lastly, the above mentioned “group” should have all states do away with EMS using courtesy lights. I can guarantee you, when that lawmaker’s mother is actively coding, he doesn’t give a damn if you come by parachute, he wants you to be there immediately. The hypocrisy of allowing EMTs to save lives, but not give them all the tools necessary to do so, is plain and idiotic. EMTs should obviously be governed by a station chief, or supervisor, as to making sure they have the proper training and licensure, but they should be allowed to respond with lights and sirens when the situation requires it.


Also add my certs should be good anywhere I decide to live. Nurses don't go through the crap medics do moving around, if they choose to move to a better clmate or back home to assist caring for aging parents.
 

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
Phillyrube said:
Also add my certs should be good anywhere I decide to live. Nurses don't go through the crap medics do moving around, if they choose to move to a better clmate or back home to assist caring for aging parents.

One hundred percent agreed, I can't believe I forgot to mention that. How is that I can save lives here, but as soon as I go to Jersey, I forget everything? It is the ultimate in state-based stupidity that they can't rely on neighboring states' certifications...Just open their test pamphlet, and see if you agree with it!
 

Mike L.

Member
May 21, 2010
261
Everett, WA
EMT-BLS said:
Listen, when I get on scene, people tell each other, "Oh, good, the ambulance is here." I'm not an ambulance, but I get what they're trying to say. But to me, it's not worth the time and effort to try and educate people as to what patch means what. If you need proof that public education doesn't work, look at lights and sirens...From even before you get your driver's training manual, it's beaten into you: Pull over to the right and stop when you see an emergency vehicle. Do they? No, they do anything but that. Slam on their brakes, pull over to the left, speed up...
What we should be doing is appealing for EMS to have normal response capabilities (use of warning lights, not courtesy), additional training for those that want to better themselves, and the doing away of idiotic levels in training. Either you're a Basic, or you're a Medic. That should be it. No more "Well, I can start a line and intubate, but can't give meds". It's pointless, and really doesn't help anyone. We need to improve ourselves, so that we can improve patient care standards.

Listen...lose the attitude with me ok. These are my opinions which I have been respectful of giving.


Concerning your driving comments. This is a discussion about the NREMT test and not driving. However, it is YOUR job to educate the public. Since our move to the right campaign started state wide about 7 years ago I would say our driver compliance rate is probably some where in excess of 85% maybe even higher than 90%. Why, because we educate the public. It can be done.


Can NREMT be improved? Yes it can. Especially once they create uniform certifications and skill sets. However, the intent of NREMT is to train providers to a national minimum. NREMT should concern itself with the following:


-uniform and standardized training which not only trains providers to a minimum, but strives to bring excellence and competence from all providers while being a pathway to future, advanced education.


-utilize a name which is not confusing for the public and conveys our skill set


-create a standard, nationwide set of protocols for BLS and ALS certified providers


-emphasize the public education component, especially in 911 usage as well as in public health issues


-provide a presence on capitol hill for EMS related bills.


They currently try to do some of these but improvements need to be made.
 

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
Mike L. said:
Listen...lose the attitude with me ok. These are my opinions which I have been respectful of giving.
Why don't you calm yourself down? I posted a non-agressive in response to something you said. If you took offense to that, get a blanky. I didn't mean it to be offensive, but read into it as you will.

Mike L. said:
Concerning your driving comments. This is a discussion about the NREMT test and not driving. However, it is YOUR job to educate the public. Since our move to the right campaign started state wide about 7 years ago I would say our driver compliance rate is probably some where in excess of 85% maybe even higher than 90%. Why, because we educate the public. It can be done.
To use a quote from Scrubs: Statistics mean nothing to the individual. I don't give a crap about averages, because they don't mean anything to me. Overall, sure, maybe there's a 90% compliance rate, but the 10% is where I live. So am I supposed to be okay with it, because in Nowheresville, USA, people yield right away? EMS safety should not be about 90%, and we can rest on our laurels for "only 10% ending badly".

Mike L. said:
Can NREMT be improved? Yes it can. Especially once they create uniform certifications and skill sets. However, the intent of NREMT is to train providers to a national minimum. NREMT should concern itself with the following:

-uniform and standardized training which not only trains providers to a minimum, but strives to bring excellence and competence from all providers while being a pathway to future, advanced education.


-utilize a name which is not confusing for the public and conveys our skill set


-create a standard, nationwide set of protocols for BLS and ALS certified providers


-emphasize the public education component, especially in 911 usage as well as in public health issues


-provide a presence on capitol hill for EMS related bills.


They currently try to do some of these but improvements need to be made.
Yes, it would be Jim-Dandy if the NR got off their asses and started at least pretending to give a crap about us individual EMT and started lobbying for the issues you bring up, but let's not delude ourselves. They are not currently trying anything. They are very okay with how they are currently set up, the money is flowing, they have the power to make or break potential EMTs. My original statement in this thread is not meant to be taken exactly as I say, it was meant to be a springboard into other EMS-related discussions of improving ourselves outside of a system that could give two craps about us. But you go ahead, get pissed because I'm not focusing on what Nurse Bitchy at Heaven's Waiting Room Nursing Home called you, and give me attitude for not caring. I want to focus on real world, true problems and concerns I and anyone else has with the system.
 

MeefZah

Member
Oct 6, 2011
123
New Philadelphia, OH
NR is a pointless outfit.


There should simply be a national standard, with one test, certifications to be good anywhere in the US.


I realize that's not going to happen, and other professional testing is state run (police, fire, nursing, etc.), so I'd even be okay with the individual states running their own testing; but having a private entity doing it, and setting unreasonable recert standards that are different from state standards, with different renewal dates, etc., is asinine. In Ohio, as John noted, you can drop the registry at first renewal and most people do.
 

FireEMSPolice

Member
May 21, 2010
3,429
Ohio
MeefZah said:
NR is a pointless outfit.

There should simply be a national standard, with one test, certifications to be good anywhere in the US.


I realize that's not going to happen, and other professional testing is state run (police, fire, nursing, etc.), so I'd even be okay with the individual states running their own testing; but having a private entity doing it, and setting unreasonable recert standards that are different from state standards, with different renewal dates, etc., is asinine. In Ohio, as John noted, you can drop the registry at first renewal and most people do.

Which makes it pointless.
 

timlinson

New Member
Apr 11, 2011
513
North Dakota
Just got an email from the NREMT for a survey I could take in conjunction with the ND DOH EMS. I made sure to add that I was dissatisfied.
 

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
timlinson said:
Just got an email from the NREMT for a survey I could take in conjunction with the ND DOH EMS. I made sure to add that I was dissatisfied.

They have been sending me paperwork no-stop for the past three months, basically begging me to recert. I very carefully destroyed the letters, and I'm officially not NR certified anymore. I don't like to pay for a service I don't require. *Insert the prerequisite joke about GPC paying for services he requires...from a waiter.*
 

dustymedic

Member
May 21, 2010
633
Columbus,OH
Passing NR does not guarantee anything other you passed NR. I used to work with a guy that got near perfect scores on the first try. He kept treating pneumonia patients as CHF and thought every ill diabetic was having a stroke. Years later, he was still riding as a second person on ALS rigs, while people who graduated form medic school 2 years after him were his in charge...
 

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
dustymedic said:
Passing NR does not guarantee anything other you passed NR. I used to work with a guy that got near perfect scores on the first try. He kept treating pneumonia patients as CHF and thought every ill diabetic was having a stroke. Years later, he was still riding as a second person on ALS rigs, while people who graduated form medic school 2 years after him were his in charge...

Simple...that's why he passed. Real-world EMS is completely different than the world the book creates. I passed with high scores, but I also needed (for lack of a better word) "detox time", to acclimate myself to how EMS really goes down. It helped that I did huge amounts of ride-alongs, but there is a need to explain the difference.
 

timlinson

New Member
Apr 11, 2011
513
North Dakota
Got a letter in the mail saying I'd be testing some new education requirements. Its down from 48 to 40 hours apparently. Still confusing as hell.
 

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