It's fine with me if you all want to put this to rest, you've clearly stated and rationalized what you are not willing to do. You will have plenty of company.
Councilman wants EMS to run through gunfire
- Thread starter Squad-6
- Start date
usdemt said:
Read the sequence of events at Columbine.
How many FF's/EMTs were killed BEFORE this major emphasis on scene safety? How many of those were killed by psychotic patients, versus deliberately murdered by criminals?
I can't believe you guys are still arguing with this nut. He'll get himself killed eventually, and then we won't have to listen to him anymore ... Hopefully, he won't take anyone else with him when it happens. I know that if I'm anywhere near there when it all goes down, I'm gonna be staged ...
[quote="Stendec
Be as "safe" as you want, you're the one who has to sleep at night with the results of your actions, or lack thereof. Maybe rescue swimmers should stay out of the water. Maybe SAR pilots should wait for perfect visibility. Maybe mountain rescue teams should wait for ideal weather Maybe surfboat crews should wait for calmer seas. Everybody can excuse inaction due to "safety."
Be as "safe" as you want, you're the one who has to sleep at night with the results of your actions, or lack thereof. Maybe rescue swimmers should stay out of the water. Maybe SAR pilots should wait for perfect visibility. Maybe mountain rescue teams should wait for ideal weather Maybe surfboat crews should wait for calmer seas. Everybody can excuse inaction due to "safety."
[quote="Stendec
Be as "safe" as you want, you're the one who has to sleep at night with the results of your actions, or lack thereof. Maybe rescue swimmers should stay out of the water. Maybe SAR pilots should wait for perfect visibility. Maybe mountain rescue teams should wait for ideal weather Maybe surfboat crews should wait for calmer seas. Everybody can excuse inaction due to "safety."
Be as "safe" as you want, you're the one who has to sleep at night with the results of your actions, or lack thereof. Maybe rescue swimmers should stay out of the water. Maybe SAR pilots should wait for perfect visibility. Maybe mountain rescue teams should wait for ideal weather Maybe surfboat crews should wait for calmer seas. Everybody can excuse inaction due to "safety."
Stendec said:
Again, we get into a delineation of duties and how the various entities are trained. Put yourself into the EMT's shoes. Go into a situation where you know someone has been shot 6 times. You have no training, equipment or knowledge of how to deal with the threat to your personal safety BUT you are expected to leave yourself exposed to getting hurt or killed? It was a logical and sound tactical decision on the part of AMR. IF they had refused to enter after PD was on scene and told them the immediate area was secure, I would say that the councilman would have a case. Instead he should be asking the police chief why it took so long for officers to arrive on scene of a known shooting with a person down. If the projects are so dangerous, perhaps they need to provide a greater police presence?
The Newhall Massacre is a combination of several factors (and you know it). First being complacency on the part of the CHP officers. They had roughly two years in per officer. We both know that is just enough time to think you know it all and fail to realize you don't know it all. Second is that 'failure to train'. Officer Fargo was carrying a shotgun at port arms. Suspect Twining killed him because "He got careless, so I wasted him". Do you think the shooter in the Jackson, Mississippi would have welcomed the EMTs with open arms or 'wasted them'. How much more complex does that make the law enforcement response when the medical personnel are down?
The decision to take action should be based on logical thinking not emotional reaction. Remember that emotional reaction is generalized as 'fight, flight or freeze'. If you're going to fight do it smart. How many people make poor decisions under extreme stress? How many pursuit videos have you seen where at the end the officers rush the vehicle versus slowing down and performing a high risk vehicle stop as is usually taught? I know very few agencies that teach and practice vehicular assaults on a patrol officer level.
The neutering of American law enforcement is two fold: fear of liability and politics. That is management level issues. There are few LEOs that I know of who are 'afraid' to perform their duties (I've had a hand in getting rid of several as a FTO).
I've got that quote up in my office.
This is bordering on surreal. You take a 3 minute news clip, and we all know the media NEVER distorts or sensationalizes a story, and that comes with absolutely no context, and flip out because a guy, representing the public, expects emergency, note thats "emergency," services workers to take on some risk in doing their jobs.
Suck it up. If EMS personnel wanted to be safer they'd strip the lights and sirens off their rigs and drive with the normal flow of traffic. But noooooo, someone's life may be at stake. How many EMS crew members, and worse, other drivers are killed or injured in wrecks every year? How many EMS workers get a couple hours of cardio every week and follow a diet, reducing their risk of heart attack, or occupationally related illness or injury. And keep in mind that a number of you have posted your less than streamlined physiques in photos.
Get a grip. No one has posted a case of an someone actively trying to kill an EMS worker; more pizza delivery drivers are victimized on the job than EMTs. Read this freaking forum - you'll find reams of complaints about being a public taxi service, but not once has some one posted even one instance of a EMT unit being ambushed, or an EMT being criminally assaulted, and don't bring psych calls into this.
On the other hand, life's unfair. Fine. Great. Stage. Do whatever. Every guy on my team has a blow-out kit mounted in the same place, except for the left-handed dude, where they and any of us can get to it. Every car has trauma dressings zip-tied to the partition, in the identical place Y'all sit tight and stay safe and snug, we'll take care of ourselves, thankyouverymuch :roll:
And Chuck82, there IS such a thing as a stupid question. How about one for you: a airliner flys into a skyscraper: should PD/Fire/EMS go in and try to evacuate the people inside, or stage until the structural engineers say it's safe to enter? After all, we have to stay safe-nothing is more important than not getting hurt or killed, right? :?
As for those lame-ass environmental hazards:http://www.lifesavingservice.org/motto.html
The Surfman Motto
"You have to go out,
but you do not have to come back!"
A letter to the editor of the old Coast Guard Magazine written by CBM Clarence P. Brady, USCG (Ret.) which was published in the March 1954 (page 2) issue, states that the first person to make this remark was Patrick Etheridge. Brady knew him when both were stationed at the Cape Hatteras LSS. Brady tells the story as follows:
"A ship was stranded off Cape Hatteras on the Diamond Shoals and one of the life saving crew reported the fact that this ship had run ashore on the dangerous shoals. The old skipper gave the command to man the lifeboat and one of the men shouted out that we might make it out to the wreck but we would never make it back. The old skipper looked around and said, 'The Blue Book says we've got to go out and it doesn't say a damn thing about having to come back.'"
Etheridge was not exaggerating. The Regulations of the Life-Saving Service of 1899, Article VI "Action at Wrecks," section 252, page 58, state that:
"In attempting a rescue the keeper will select either the boat, breeches buoy, or life car, as in his judgement is best suited to effectively cope with the existing conditions. If the device first selected fails after such trial as satisfies him that no further attempt with it is feasible, he will resort to one of the others, and if that fails, then to the remaining one, and he will not desist from his efforts until by actual trial the impossibility of effecting a rescue is demonstrated. The statement of the keeper that he did not try to use the boat because the sea or surf was too heavy will not be accepted unless attempts to launch it were actually made and failed [underlining added], or unless the conformation of the coast--as bluffs, precipitous banks, etc.--is such as to unquestionable preclude the use of a boat."
This section of the Regulations remained in force after the creation of the Coast Guard in 1915. The new Instructions for United States Coast Guard Stations, 1934 edition, copied Section 252 word for word as it appeared in 1899. [1934 Instructions for United States Coast Guard Stations, Paragraph 28, page 4].
source: U.S. Coast Guard
This is bordering on surreal. You take a 3 minute news clip, and we all know the media NEVER distorts or sensationalizes a story, and that comes with absolutely no context, and flip out because a guy, representing the public, expects emergency, note thats "emergency," services workers to take on some risk in doing their jobs.
Suck it up. If EMS personnel wanted to be safer they'd strip the lights and sirens off their rigs and drive with the normal flow of traffic. But noooooo, someone's life may be at stake. How many EMS crew members, and worse, other drivers are killed or injured in wrecks every year? How many EMS workers get a couple hours of cardio every week and follow a diet, reducing their risk of heart attack, or occupationally related illness or injury. And keep in mind that a number of you have posted your less than streamlined physiques in photos.
Get a grip. No one has posted a case of an someone actively trying to kill an EMS worker; more pizza delivery drivers are victimized on the job than EMTs. Read this freaking forum - you'll find reams of complaints about being a public taxi service, but not once has some one posted even one instance of a EMT unit being ambushed, or an EMT being criminally assaulted, and don't bring psych calls into this.
On the other hand, life's unfair. Fine. Great. Stage. Do whatever. Every guy on my team has a blow-out kit mounted in the same place, except for the left-handed dude, where they and any of us can get to it. Every car has trauma dressings zip-tied to the partition, in the identical place Y'all sit tight and stay safe and snug, we'll take care of ourselves, thankyouverymuch :roll:
And Chuck82, there IS such a thing as a stupid question. How about one for you: a airliner flys into a skyscraper: should PD/Fire/EMS go in and try to evacuate the people inside, or stage until the structural engineers say it's safe to enter? After all, we have to stay safe-nothing is more important than not getting hurt or killed, right? :?
As for those lame-ass environmental hazards:http://www.lifesavingservice.org/motto.html
The Surfman Motto
"You have to go out,
but you do not have to come back!"
A letter to the editor of the old Coast Guard Magazine written by CBM Clarence P. Brady, USCG (Ret.) which was published in the March 1954 (page 2) issue, states that the first person to make this remark was Patrick Etheridge. Brady knew him when both were stationed at the Cape Hatteras LSS. Brady tells the story as follows:
"A ship was stranded off Cape Hatteras on the Diamond Shoals and one of the life saving crew reported the fact that this ship had run ashore on the dangerous shoals. The old skipper gave the command to man the lifeboat and one of the men shouted out that we might make it out to the wreck but we would never make it back. The old skipper looked around and said, 'The Blue Book says we've got to go out and it doesn't say a damn thing about having to come back.'"
Etheridge was not exaggerating. The Regulations of the Life-Saving Service of 1899, Article VI "Action at Wrecks," section 252, page 58, state that:
"In attempting a rescue the keeper will select either the boat, breeches buoy, or life car, as in his judgement is best suited to effectively cope with the existing conditions. If the device first selected fails after such trial as satisfies him that no further attempt with it is feasible, he will resort to one of the others, and if that fails, then to the remaining one, and he will not desist from his efforts until by actual trial the impossibility of effecting a rescue is demonstrated. The statement of the keeper that he did not try to use the boat because the sea or surf was too heavy will not be accepted unless attempts to launch it were actually made and failed [underlining added], or unless the conformation of the coast--as bluffs, precipitous banks, etc.--is such as to unquestionable preclude the use of a boat."
This section of the Regulations remained in force after the creation of the Coast Guard in 1915. The new Instructions for United States Coast Guard Stations, 1934 edition, copied Section 252 word for word as it appeared in 1899. [1934 Instructions for United States Coast Guard Stations, Paragraph 28, page 4].
source: U.S. Coast Guard
surf_kat said:
I'll stay in my shoes: if some were to be hurt or killed due to my inaction, I'd never sleep again, and I'd serve my papers immediately. It was an *easy* decision for them to make, because we, and I very definitely include us cops, use the mantra of "safety" as an unquestionable reason to avoid any risk. The public is sick of that, and we should be ashamed that we, and I very definitely include us cops, have let the public down and dishonored our profession, when we haven't rode to the sound of the guns and done the right thing, just because it was the right thing to do, when it needed to be done.
I thought the role of EMS was to aid the sick and injured. Did they fulfill their role?
Why Newhall occurred isn't the issue. It's that it spawned this idea that the most important thing for a cop to do is protect his or her own ass. A lot of great advances have resulted, but we forgot that protecting the public's ass is our first mission. It's my job to fight smart and win, not survive. Maybe I was mistaken in thinking that applied to fire and EMS, I don't know, everyone keeps saying that we are on this same team or such.
Maybe the projects need a standing army, but they have what they have, and you use what you've got. I don't know the specifics of the case that prompted the video. If an EMS unit arrived at a call and someone actually came out a straight up threatened them, and I mean more than just the typical projects shuck and jive, that's one thing. Disengage, scoot on out of there, and let the cops generate some more people for the unit to treat. But if they didn't actually go on the call, because it was a shooting and therefore automatically "dangerous," that's just wrong. We have 3 cars on for the county tonight, and that's actually considered heavy coverage. EMS will likely beat us to every bar fight with injuries, accident with injuries, assaults, you name it, unless by coincidence a car is nearby. When I go on soon, I'll have calls pending from the previous shift, and I may be so busy that the squads will transport victims to the hospital and I, or day shift, will have to start our reports and interviews there. Maybe we have a different breed of medic here, they've called us for assistance, but never because they thought a call *might* be "dangerous." The only exception that I know of is when a guy called and confessed he had killed his wife. They went, and waited on the road for us to clear the house. They knew they weren't actually needed, but actually volunteered to stick around just in case things broke bad.
Stendec said:
Exactly. Because staging for LE works.
However, I do recall on a NY volunteer EMT being shot and killed by the patient and the story being posted here or old ELB. That is a different scenario because I am guessing it did not go out as a violent/psych/etc type call to indicate there would be an unstable PT so it is unfortunate that he was killed but if info was given that said the PT could be violent or have psych issues then they should've staged.
So I haven't read every word of every reply but as far as bashing on Stendec I got to say I totally disagree with anyone doing that.
I don't care if your paid or volunteer, law enforcement or other, if you man any vehicle with a siren that responds to 911 calls you better grow a pair. Sure personal safety is suppose to be our better judgment but in the thick of it we all better be willing to put it on the line to protect life, property, & each other. Some make fun of Stendec about having a hero complex or being new but maybe he is one of the few whos been doing the job for awhile but hasn't become numb & willing to take every risk required on every job.
Lets all lighten up, this councilmen is wrong & won't get anywhere with this BS. Then remember any of us on here who is a medic, firefighter or cop may be shoulder to shoulder at any moment against the evils in this world & when the bullets start flying, bombs start exploding, or lethal virus breaks loose we got to work together because we, all of us in public safety is who the masses will be turning to.
It doesn't matter if your badge is tin, leather, or a stethoscope. you are one of the good guys & you better be ready to go the extra mile & risk it all every time you flick on the siren.
I don't care if your paid or volunteer, law enforcement or other, if you man any vehicle with a siren that responds to 911 calls you better grow a pair. Sure personal safety is suppose to be our better judgment but in the thick of it we all better be willing to put it on the line to protect life, property, & each other. Some make fun of Stendec about having a hero complex or being new but maybe he is one of the few whos been doing the job for awhile but hasn't become numb & willing to take every risk required on every job.
Lets all lighten up, this councilmen is wrong & won't get anywhere with this BS. Then remember any of us on here who is a medic, firefighter or cop may be shoulder to shoulder at any moment against the evils in this world & when the bullets start flying, bombs start exploding, or lethal virus breaks loose we got to work together because we, all of us in public safety is who the masses will be turning to.
It doesn't matter if your badge is tin, leather, or a stethoscope. you are one of the good guys & you better be ready to go the extra mile & risk it all every time you flick on the siren.
Klein said:
Says who? The absence of something doesn't prove the existence of something else. If it was such a huge problem, then why hasn't the EMS field moved to commission, train and arm EMTs? They could use the Federal Flight Deck Officer program as a template. I think this falls into the "everybody knows" category, but if there is empirical data on the criminal victimization of EMS workers in the field, I'd love to see the references. Some bandits were holding up paramedic units for narcotics in the 80's in one city I was familiar with. I think they got 3 before getting snared but that's it that I know of.
And I'm not unempathetic - I worked my way through college in the ER of a big city hospital, so I know full well that EMS staff deals with people ranging from "unpleasant" to bugnuts crazy to despicable. But that's the job.
I've got to get to work, and unlike one other cop on this forum, I don't take time off the road to hit the station and surf the web
Clearly if we should be armed, you better learn how to place IVs. If you dont learn how to place IVs, fight fire, stabilize hazmat and cut up cars, then you should quit. How does your argument sound against you. I dont do your job, and you dont do mine; you said it yourself when you said you'd step over my patient to get your perp.
charlie82 said:
Yougottabekiddingme. These are the same bloodthirsty maniacs waiting to murder you at the first opportunity? Maybe you could hire a gunbearer, who could carry your pistol for you, then if you failed to establish rapport, unconditional positive regard and mutual trust and respect, you could ask your gunbearer for your pistol, and shoot your patient.
Stendec said:
ok, so it's not EMS but this only took me 30 seconds to find.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1561451
and another minute later, more on that
http://www.firerescue1.com/firefighter- ... colleague/
http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... n_the.html
and here's a couple more for you, total search time, about 7 minutes
http://www.uflac.org/files/FF_Mar_Apr_2003.pdf
http://patdollard.com/2010/07/mob-of-30 ... g-complex/
(ignoring the racial aspect of the article, it's still firefighters getting ambushed)
These are EMS
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1110663/posts
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive ... 13548.html (same story)
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=7808
http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/show ... php?t=4245
charlie82 said:
Well, if you don't need to be armed, it must not be that dangerous for you, so I'll go handle other calls.
Mick (firewolf) said:
http://www.ems1.com/ems-news/451530-ny- ... y-patient/
We do not need to be armed because it is not our job. Maybe Tac Medics or LEO but not EMS. It does not look good on EMS part if we try to take care of a patient with a pistol strapped to our side. The patient would more than likely take offense to it which in turn could agitate them. We will start the lines and push the meds, firefighters will put the wet stuff on the red stuff and cut the roof off the '97 civic wrapped around the pole and LEO can write speeding tickets and keep our community safe from those that wish to harm their fellow citizens (which in turn EMS will try to save those victims and/or fire will save the house and property from the arsonist).
Stendec said:
Ever dealt with someone who is on drugs, how 'bout people who have records. Not everyone likes cops. They tell us what drugs they have taken because they know we dont tell the cops (we dont have to by law - and I never will). Those who are emotionally stressed also tend to dislike the cops in my experience.
Stendec said:
Its safe because LE is there. Why dont you start placing IVs? Why are you walking over my patient (you said that)? Why dont you cut up cars? Its the same reason why I dont aim a gun at your perp. In PA, it is ILLEGAL for an emt to carry a weapon on duty.
Stendec said:
they do.they train us to stage for police who are trained to deal with criminals so that we can then go in and deal with the patient. As others have said, this does not preclude the possibility of a situation arising in which I will put myself in danger to save someone else. If that situation arises where I need to do that, I've accepted that risk when I put on the badge. But in general, ain't gonna happen. And I will sleep well at night knowing I'm not dead. Deal with it.
Public safety is all about RISK MITIGATION. (Or however you spell it). it is an inheriantly dangerous career, no matter what particular field you choose.
The goals of law enforcement is this, and in this order and no other order.
1 PROTECT LIFE
2 PROTECT PROPERTY
3 ENFORCE THE LAW
Goals of Fire protection is
1 PROTECT LIFE
2 PROTECT PROPERTY
Goals of EMS
1 PROTECT LIFE.
The order cannot change.
Also notice that protect life is always job one.
And the order of protecting life is:
1 YOURSELF
2 YOUR PARTNER. (Be it a fellow officer, emt, or ff)
3 EVERYBODY ELSE.
A dead cop, ff, or emt can't help somebody else
The goals of law enforcement is this, and in this order and no other order.
1 PROTECT LIFE
2 PROTECT PROPERTY
3 ENFORCE THE LAW
Goals of Fire protection is
1 PROTECT LIFE
2 PROTECT PROPERTY
Goals of EMS
1 PROTECT LIFE.
The order cannot change.
Also notice that protect life is always job one.
And the order of protecting life is:
1 YOURSELF
2 YOUR PARTNER. (Be it a fellow officer, emt, or ff)
3 EVERYBODY ELSE.
A dead cop, ff, or emt can't help somebody else
I can't say I would never take a risk, because I have many times, but I shouldn't be expected to go on a suicide mission. And lets face it, it depends on the situation. It ain't politically correct, but if some project doper gets shot in a deal gone bad and he's lying there bleeding out and the bullets are still whizzing around, he can sit there for all I care. He chose a high risk occupation, and this cat isn't goin' down with him. He put himself there. On the other hand, if an innocent child is lying there, I would probably take that risk. Making it POLICY that I have to is just wrong. If you want to cross train and properly equip EMS or fire to be cops, then go with a "public safety" department that does it all, but otherwise, the division of labor is there for a reason. We generate enough dead heroes every year without dumping common sense out the window.
crescentstar69 said:
And the supply of people who will stand around and do nothing is infinite.
Well, y'all keep on not doing what you aren't gonna do.
ok, so you keep whining about nobody showing you where EMS personnel are getting shot at/killed. I did a quick search and in just 7 minutes found multiple articles (pretty sure there are tons more with more searching - I remember reading an article - that I didn't find last night - about a guy calling in a fire and then shooting the firefighters when they got there - wanna say it was Baltimore). Now you don't have a response?
Yeah, I got a response: shit happens. Deal with it. Life comes with an automatic death sentence for which there is no appeal. Maybe you'd feel safer selling sofas. Do a 7 minute search and find out how many medics are killed in crashes going to calls, and then tell us us which figure is higher. Do a 7 minute search and tell us how many die on calls of heart attacks trying to hoof their out-of shape asses up 3 flights of stairs. There have been more people killed in EMS aircraft crashes in the last 2 years than in all of the articles you cited combined. The article you seem to remember, but not very well, sounds like a flat-out ambush, you think cops don't get killed in those? If a sniper calls in a fire or EMS unit deliberately to kill them, do you think that us cops can magically prevent that just by being there? A smart killer would take us out first, then pick you off at their leisure while you waddle around in your turnout gear. You want a police escort for every freaking run you make, just in case? Objective reasonableness, dude; what are the REAL OTJ threats you face? I gotta go hold your hand on a smell-of-gas call in case it's the Mad Bomber?
You are going to have some great stories to tell your grandkids:
"There I was, cocked and locked, coiled, ready to strike, like a cobra, staged.....waiting.....staging some more.....waiting.......waiting.........then the cops came out told me it was safe to go in, so I pounced on my patient like a jungle cat......."
That's some hardcore epic shit right there man, the stuff legends are made of.
"Firewolf" :roll: Maybe you aren't the badass you think you are, pup.
You are going to have some great stories to tell your grandkids:
"There I was, cocked and locked, coiled, ready to strike, like a cobra, staged.....waiting.....staging some more.....waiting.......waiting.........then the cops came out told me it was safe to go in, so I pounced on my patient like a jungle cat......."
That's some hardcore epic shit right there man, the stuff legends are made of.
"Firewolf" :roll: Maybe you aren't the badass you think you are, pup.
Stendec said:
Better that than grand kids having to hear a story about how Daddy or Mommy got shot to death by some perp because the police wasn't there to do THEIR job securing a scene, eh?
Just so we're straight, you want us to believe that EMT's should protect ourselves, correct?
What I have learned in my time in Public Safety Service( I'm a ff/medic)is that emergency scenes are dangerous and it takes EVERYONE responding to the call to make it as safe as possible for all the responders. It takes LEO's, Firefighters and Medics(if seperate for the FD), WORKING TOGETHER, to have a good outcome for us first, then the people we are trying to help. I was always taught from my first day on the job is that everyone who got on the engine(Medic, Ladder, or cruiser) goes home safe at the end of the shift to their respective families, and that takes ALL of us working together. Whether its a Fire, Shooting, crash scene, etc. Ladies and Gentlemen this is a TEAM sport! There is no 1 person or branch that will superman a scene and fix everything on their own(even though some EGO's may think so).
Public Safety Service is a calling and not meant for everyone, it takes people who are not afraid to put themselves in harms way for a stranger and they do that because they truly love the job and want to help.
As for the video of the councilman's interview, I'm still at a loss for words.
Stay safe,
Chris
Public Safety Service is a calling and not meant for everyone, it takes people who are not afraid to put themselves in harms way for a stranger and they do that because they truly love the job and want to help.
As for the video of the councilman's interview, I'm still at a loss for words.
Stay safe,
Chris
Isn't it funny how Stendec ignores the reasoning that fewer medics die from gunfire than wrecks as a DIRECT RESULT of the fact that we do stage.
Read this, it has all the pre-policy and post-policy proof you need going back 40 years:
http://www.emsworld.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=3&id=2393
Read this, it has all the pre-policy and post-policy proof you need going back 40 years:
http://www.emsworld.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=3&id=2393
Guys, its like everything else with him.... there is only HIS way. He cannot agree to disagree, you are either on board with him or a worthless idiot to him. The more you all reply, the crazier and more far fetched his arguements are going to get. If there is one thing I have learned over the years, he won't stop. He just can't let something go until you agree with him or stop encouraging him.
charlie82 said:
98% of the people I've treated as a Border Patrol Agent/paramedic are people that we've taken into custody. They know they are going to jail and facing deportation. I wear the same uniform as the rest of our agents, nothing shows that I'm a paramedic. I tend to get accurate answers during treatment because I take the time to explain to my patients WHY I need them. I also typically don't have any issues with them because of what we call 'officer presence'. A surprising majority 1) have some type of criminal record and 2) actually thank me for taking care of their injuries or illness. In a handful of cases the patient has made statements that are legally documented and turned over for investigative purposes.
What I'm seeing in these thread is the classic EMS vs Law Enforcement dislike. As a law enforcement officer, I'm not going to put EMS at needless risk. As a paramedic, I'm not going to let a hostile environment deter me from providing medical treatment.
mcpd2025 said:
Yep
He keeps up with the 'gunfire deaths, gunfire deaths' vs 'accidents' vs 'health/wellfit' deaths... blah, blah, blah. Maybe, that's the just ratio of deaths and how they happen.
Here's a news flash too... more cops are killed in accidents or health related issues than are feloniously killed. Do cops stage for stuff like this? Not too often. So, are they doing or not doing something wrong or right? I'm sure if all deaths in the public safety field were compared, these ratios would all be relatively similar, led by accidents or health reasons, and followed by violent deaths.
Tombstone courage is stupid. It'll get you or your co-workers hurt or killed, not to mention fiscal liability for lawsuits. Dying as a martyr means your still dead, and likely talked about at that.
Whatever it is that your fixated on with this, I pity the people you have to work with, or worse off, the new people to this field you train with your demented view of 'the requirements of the job.' :|
cory y said:
In active shooter response you are putting protecting 'everybody else' in front of protecting yourself and protecting your partner(s). You want pucker factor 10, make entry with a single partner on unknown subject(s) who are slaughtering innocents. As a contact team, we're bypassing those who are injured, who are screaming for help. Our only goal is to neutralize the threat. The majority of the time, if the shooter(s) know they are being hunted, they will turn their guns on themselves.
:roll: if he actually used logic this could be an interesting debate, but the fun of "argument" only lasts so long ... out, enjoy ...
BigDogg795 said:
I 'd like my grandkids to know something about duty, selflessness, and honor. If I get killed doing my duty, so be it. I train every day to win those confrontations and solve those problems I may face, but I will not fail the public who places there trust in me to protect them. I'd rather die doing my best, than live knowing I couldn't rise to the challenge. I'm insignificant, one tiny speck in the universe. In the big picture, I don't matter much, and it isn't about me. I won't find a cure for cancer, and I'll never be in the Olympics. But I will not fail my community. If anyone of them needs me, from crackwhore to clergy, I will be there, and I will not let them down.
Enough. it's abundantly clear that the majority here will do anything to rationalize inaction. Fine. But I'm not about to lower my standards just so you can feel OK about yours. With your shield, or on it, but apparently they don't even teach that to cops anymore.
I've been shot at more than once, and cut twice. Defense lawyers don't even try to bait me anymore. Does anyone really, seriously think that personal attacks on me by anonymous typists on the internet are really going to have any sort of impact? Why waste the effort even pecking them out? Particularly when you're a cop who won't even leave the office in bad weather?
Stendec said:
??"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."?- Attributed to General George Patton Jr
I was disappointed with the various news articles posted. Few met the criteria of 'waiting for police to secure the scene'. There were several ambushes, at least one that was attributed to an ex-husband, etc.
Here is one that fits the criteria and infact the paramedic went into a hostile environment to aid the police officers who were shot. In return, he is shot and becomes the most critical of all three. http://www.emsworld.com/online/article. ... =1&id=1632
Is this aimed at me? Here's my office:
(we're outnumbered 23 to 2, not even enough flex cuffs to secure everyone)
(67 out of a U-Haul with local law enforcement assisting)